Starter problem

[mtnbkr]

My 4Runner has exhibited a starter issue ever since I had the transmission, clutch, and flywheel replaced last year.  When I go to start the truck, sometimes the starter will seemingly spin without the solenoid engaging.  I took it back to the shop and they suggested the solenoid was going bad and that I should replace the starter (replacing the solenoid on that starter was about as much as replacing the entire starter).  I got a new (remanned) starter and did the swap myself.  The pinion gear on the old starter didn't look damaged as if it were engaging a damaged flywheel, so that lent credence to a bad solenoid as the fault.

After the swap, the problem went away for several weeks.  Then, after not recurring for over a month, the problem comes back. 

When it happens, all I have to do is turn the key to "Off", then I can start the truck up normally.  It hasn't gotten worse and will go days at a time without missing a beat. 

The one time I dealt with a car that was losing teeth on the flywheel (actually flex plate since it was an auto), it never recovered easily and progressively got worse as time went on.  This doesn't seem to be the same problem. 

So, what else could cause this issue? 

Chris

[Tallpine]

Something about the switch   

Or it could be another bad solenoid.

I used to pull starters out and swap pieces around all the time.  I had one that the "half bell" that holds the bearing for the end of the starter shaft broke plum off.  Never seen that before or since.  I had to buy a new starter of course but I kept the broken one for parts, of which I eventually used everything.

[mtnbkr]

Something about the switch   

Wouldn't that affect the ability of the starter to spin at all though?  I had a bad switch in my old VW one time, the entire starter refused to function.  Funny story...being a poor college kid, I couldn't afford to have it replaced, so I wired in a wall switch like you have in your house to turn on the lights.  I'd turn the key to "on", then flip the switch to "on" until the car fired up, then I'd flip it off again.  The switch lived under the driver's seat.  It worked so well, I never felt the need to replace it.

Anyway, the starter in this case turns strongly, it just doesn't seem to be engaging with anything when this happens.

Or it could be another bad solenoid.

True, but what would be the odds...

I used to pull starters out and swap pieces around all the time.  I had one that the "half bell" that holds the bearing for the end of the starter shaft broke plum off.  Never seen that before or since.  I had to buy a new starter of course but I kept the broken one for parts, of which I eventually used everything.

I kept the old starter just for this.  The new unit I bought didn't have a core charge (and has a lifetime warranty).

I don't feel like messing with it, but maybe I should swap the old one back in and return the "new" one for a replacement.  It's not my daily driver, so it isn't a risk if it's non-functional for a day or three.

Chris

[Tallpine]

Wouldn't that affect the ability of the starter to spin at all though? 

Yeah, in older simpler vehicles but I was just wondering if your switch had separate contacts 


Actually, now that I think about it again, depending on how the starter is made it's probably not the solenoid at all but the "bendix" mechanism 

I wouldn't be surprised at either going out after a short time on a "rebuilt" starter.

Seems like some GM starters had a deal where the solenoid not only made the contact but pushed a lever that engaged the starter gear 

Oh yeah and just because it works on the bench doesn't mean it works in the truck.

[Boomhauer]

Likely the bendix going out. Had that issue once hooked starter up to a battery on the bench to test it out...lo and behold bendix wouldnt pop out to engage the flywheel.

[Azrael256]

I believe that vehicle does not have a bendix.  I don't believe I have seen one on an automobile made in my lifetime.  I have seen a few on motorcycles and equipment.  Everything else I know of has used the solenoid to move the pinion gear.

Yeah, that's a bad solenoid.  Usually they fail completely and won't make contact to spin the motor.  Must be a Toyota thing.

It's also possible that there is a problem getting the pinion gear to the ring gear.  I saw one truck where the owner had changed the starter and had tossed the shims, so the pinion gear had a bevel ground in it.

[230RN]

Laugh ye not:  Twice in my life I cured starter and solenoid problems by giving the starter solenoid and starter body a goodly couple of raps from different directions with a calibrated hammer.

[French G.]

Laugh ye not:  Twice in my life I cured starter and solenoid problems by giving the starter solenoid and starter body a goodly couple of raps from different directions with a calibrated hammer.

That is always remedial action #1, always. 2nd, you can eliminate questions about the switch wiring by jumping the terminals on the starter. Don't run yourself over. I have had a starter give intermittent issues like that both with a borderline battery and with cables that were corroded internally. Check everything, then suspect the solenoid.

[K Frame]

"Or it could be another bad solenoid.
True, but what would be the odds..."

In this day and age, pretty good, it would seem.

I had a 1991 Plymouth Sundance. Little pos car, but I got 165K miles out of it.

But, early on, I had a whole series of issues, including the thermostat.

The thermo kept failing. Most of the time it failed open.

These were Chrysler thermostats, installed by the dealer shop, Koons, in Tysons.

Within the span of about 3 months, I went through 5 thermostats.

[Tallpine]

Likely the bendix going out. Had that issue once hooked starter up to a battery on the bench to test it out...lo and behold bendix wouldnt pop out to engage the flywheel.

I had a starter that would work fine on the bench, but not under a load.  The bendix gear would keep popping back out.  They told me the flywheel must be bad.  I got another rebuilt starter and it worked fine.   

It's been so long now since I've had a starter apart.  I used to just buy a new bendix gear for them and put it in myself.  Dang I'm getting old. :(

[geronimotwo]

 doesn't the solenoid need to be working for the starter to spin?  perhaps the shaft, that the gear slides on, needs some lubrication?  did you check the old one before returning your core?  is there a bad jumper/ground on the starter/solenoid?

[Azrael256]

doesn't the solenoid need to be working for the starter to spin?  perhaps the shaft, that the gear slides on, needs some lubrication?  did you check the old one before returning your core?  is there a bad jumper/ground on the starter/solenoid?

Depends on the design.  The solenoid usually closes the switch to engage the motor and moves the pinion gear, but these two things are not the exact same action.  They happen differently, and at different points in the travel of the shaft.  Some designs are more prone to this than others, and a quick search indicates this is more common on that vehicle.  It's entirely possible to engage the motor with a separate relay stuffed in the trunk, if you really wanted to.

[mtnbkr]

I suppose anything is possible, but I really don't want to replace the starter yet again.  It isn't hard, just annoying.

I still have my old one and can use that while I ship the other one back if it comes to that.

As for the battery, it spins the starter well, but it is 4yo (was 3 when this started occurring).  It was starting the truck well even during the coldest part of the winter.

Azrael, where did you find info that this was common to the 4Runner?  I could never find anything other than info about replacing the starter motor contacts (which I've did several years ago due to a different symptom).

Chris

[Sergeant Bob]

It's also possible that there is a problem getting the pinion gear to the ring gear.  I saw one truck where the owner had changed the starter and had tossed the shims, so the pinion gear had a bevel ground in it.

Shims were my first thought. With the tranny and clutch being pulled it's quite possible.

[mtnbkr]

Would the shims be for the starter or something else?  I've never seen shims on the starter, nor ever heard of them for the 4Runner.  I pulled the starter the first time years ago (to replace the worn starter motor bushings).  No issues after that...

Besides, wouldn't that cause a more persistent issue?

Chris

[Tallpine]

Would the shims be for the starter or something else?  I've never seen shims on the starter, nor ever heard of them for the 4Runner.  I pulled the starter the first time years ago (to replace the worn starter motor bushings).  No issues after that...

Besides, wouldn't that cause a more persistent issue?

Chris

Seems to be something that they just started doing a few years ago.  I've installed dozens of starters for years and there were no shims provided.  Now, you're supposed to put them, or not depending on the spacing, between the starter housing and the engine block.  Last one I just said screw it and it seems to work just fine.

[K Frame]

Last car I worked on that had starter shims was my Dad's 1971 International Harvester Scout.

Even my 1977 Ford Maverick didn't have shims.

[Azrael256]

Seems to be something that they just started doing a few years ago.  I've installed dozens of starters for years and there were no shims provided.  Now, you're supposed to put them, or not depending on the spacing, between the starter housing and the engine block.  Last one I just said screw it and it seems to work just fine.

They've been around for quite some time.  You're supposed to pop off the inspection plate and use a feeler gauge tool that comes with the shims to see if they're necessary.  They aren't always, but they do cut down on the noise quite a bit.  "Didn't have shims" means "it didn't make enough noise at the factory to come with them."  Assuming you were cool and had the 302, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/brn-79075/overview/make/ford.  Supposedly less common on Fords, but a thrust bearing problem on your Maverick would have made it necessary at some point.  Basically all GMs that I know of need them due to a major design difference.

If the pinion gear sticks in the extended position, the motor will overspeed from the engine and it will ruin the bearings.  Misalignment can cause this.  If the gear doesn't extend, the whole thing will pulverize itself (misalignment) or the motor will overspeed for lack of load (mtnbkr, pay attention here) and probably overheat and toastify itself.  If your garage smells like burned starter, this is the problem.

If you ever have a vehicle that seems to eat starters, buy the shim kit and a good hacksaw.

[mtnbkr]

When mine doesn't engage, I never let it run for more than a second (however long it takes for me to realize it isn't working correctly). 

There's another problem common to 3rd Gen 4Runner starters where the motor contacts wear and start to stick, causing the starter to not work at all (symptoms similar to dead battery) or continue to run after the engine has started and the key released.  The fix is simply, replace the motor brushes and one other small part.  Cost was about $20 in parts and it took less than an hour to remove the starter, replace the parts, and reinstall.  That isn't what I'm experiencing this time though.

I'm still unclear on the shim issue though.  Wouldn't a need for shims manifest itself 100% (or nearly so) of the time?  Also, when I pulled the original starter at the beginning of this (after driving it for a couple months with the symptoms), there was no abnormal wear on the pinion gear.  It looked fine.

Chris

[Tallpine]

Basically all GMs that I know of need [shims] due to a major design difference.

Never saw or heard of such a thing back in the 1970s when I worked in garages, nor in the 1980s when I was constantly working on my logging trucks and pickups.

[K Frame]

Yes, my Maverick was the 302 shortblock V8.

2 door coupe. Unfortunately, it had a bench front seat.

Loved that car. Absolutely loved it.

[mtnbkr]

Yes, my Maverick was the 302 shortblock V8.

It didn't have heads, intake, or exhaust?

Chris

[Tallpine]

It didn't have heads, intake, or exhaust?

Chris

It was really fast without all that extra weight 

[K Frame]

Short block, small block, whatever. At least it would get me there. Yours won't even start...

[mtnbkr]

Short block, small block, whatever. At least it would get me there. Yours won't even start...

Mine will start, it's just like playing Russian Roulette. :D

[Scene]A guy sits in a smoky bar truck as he nervously points the gun to his temple inserts the key.  Before pulling the trigger turning the key, he wonders "will the gun go off?" "will the truck start?". [/scene]

:D

Chris