Author Topic: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!  (Read 22724 times)

Balog

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #100 on: August 26, 2013, 05:57:21 PM »
All I see are measures designed to hurt the Southern states.

That being said, I don't really know why I'm even having this argument. If you want to give a tongue bath to the man who established the precedents used to rape the Constitution then good for you, I guess? I doubt anything I say will sway you, and the interior motivations of someone who died 150ish years ago are probably not worth spending time arguing over. So, congratulations, I officially don't care enough to keep fighting.
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Scout26

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #101 on: August 26, 2013, 06:18:08 PM »
I'm merely pointing out what Lincoln did and the reasons why.  I disagree with Lincoln on the states rights, but again the state's right that they hung their hat on, was (and is) morally repugnant.  Had it been something like the Federal Reserve (yes, I know before their time), Income Tax, or 2A issues, then they would have been right.

Do I think that everything Lincoln did was morally right.  No.   Did he do what he thought was necessary (within his legal powers) to support HIS primary war goal of "Preserving the Union."  Yes.    Yes, we can bicker and argue over whether we think it's legal, but apparently what he did withstood whatever legal challenges there were then.
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Tallpine

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #102 on: August 26, 2013, 06:26:10 PM »
I'm merely pointing out what Lincoln did and the reasons why.  I disagree with Lincoln on the states rights, but again the state's right that they hung their hat on, was (and is) morally repugnant.  Had it been something like the Federal Reserve (yes, I know before their time), Income Tax, or 2A issues, then they would have been right.

Would tariffs have been right  ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Scout26

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #103 on: August 26, 2013, 07:02:03 PM »
We have tariffs now. 

Are your referring to Import or Export teriffs?
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #104 on: August 26, 2013, 07:16:42 PM »
We have tariffs now. 

Are your referring to Import or Export teriffs?


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Scout26

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #105 on: August 27, 2013, 12:15:57 AM »

http://www.ushistory.org/us/24c.asp

Those damn South Cackalackians acting all uppity and stuff, yet again.  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 01:10:06 AM by scout26 »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Jim147

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #106 on: August 27, 2013, 01:09:04 AM »
At least he wiped out all the vampires.

Just think where we would be today if Obama had to deal with vampires and his golf schedule?

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #107 on: August 27, 2013, 01:51:45 AM »
Collateral damage, just in a good way. If it hadn't been expedient to do so for the war effort I doubt he'd have freed anyone.


I'm sure all those slaves just went back and put the chains back on, once they realized the impurity of Lincoln's motives. It must have truly disgusted them.
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makattak

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #108 on: August 27, 2013, 08:05:04 AM »
All I see are measures designed to hurt the Southern states.

That being said, I don't really know why I'm even having this argument. If you want to give a tongue bath to the man who established the precedents used to rape the Constitution then good for you, I guess? I doubt anything I say will sway you, and the interior motivations of someone who died 150ish years ago are probably not worth spending time arguing over. So, congratulations, I officially don't care enough to keep fighting.

And I'm going to keep arguing with you, anyway.  :P

Seriously, though, I think it IS important to understand the motivations, even (especially?) of those who died long ago. It's part of understanding human nature and the thought process of someone who (as you point out) did some pretty terrible things to the rule of law.

Just saying that he was crass and self-serving is a cop-out. I believe he made some bad decisions. He thought the sacrifice was worth it to preserve the Union and end slavery. (His goal, most assuredly, was to end slavery. The timeline may have been different as well as the means had the South not fired on Fort Sumter.)

Was preserving the Union worth it? I don't know. Today, we suffer for it, but the world would be a significantly different place if the 20th Century had a divided "United States", with animosity towards one other. Was ending slavery worth it? Of course. The only question is whether we could have ended it without so much bloodshed-- I don't know if we could have. 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:08:18 AM by makattak »
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Tallpine

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #109 on: August 27, 2013, 10:19:09 AM »
England and the American Colonies divided and got over the animosity  ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MechAg94

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #110 on: August 27, 2013, 10:34:33 AM »
At least he wiped out all the vampires.

Just think where we would be today if Obama had to deal with vampires and his golf schedule?

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #111 on: August 27, 2013, 12:34:06 PM »
n an 1858 letter, Lincoln said, “I have declared a thousand times, and now repeat that, in my opinion neither the General Government, nor any other power outside of the slave states, can constitutionally or rightfully interfere with slaves or slavery where it already exists.” In a Springfield, Ill., speech, he explained, “My declarations upon this subject of negro slavery may be misrepresented, but can not be misunderstood. I have said that I do not understand the Declaration (of Independence) to mean that all men were created equal in all respects.” Debating with Sen. Stephen Douglas, Lincoln said, “I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of … making voters or jurors of Negroes nor of qualifying them to hold office nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races, which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality.”

Lincoln’s words: “I view the matter (Emancipation Proclamation) as a practical war measure, to be decided upon according to the advantages or disadvantages it may offer to the suppression of the rebellion.” He also wrote: “I will also concede that emancipation would help us in Europe, and convince them that we are incited by something more than ambition.” At the time Lincoln wrote the proclamation, war was going badly for the Union.

London and Paris were considering recognizing the Confederacy and considering assisting it in its war effort.

The Emancipation Proclamation was not a universal declaration. It detailed where slaves were freed, only in those states “in rebellion against the United States.” Slaves remained slaves in states not in rebellion — such as Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware. The hypocrisy of the Emancipation Proclamation came in for heavy criticism. Lincoln’s own secretary of state, William Seward, said, “We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free.”

Lincoln did articulate a view of secession that would have been welcomed in 1776: “Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. … Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit.” But that was Lincoln’s 1848 speech in the U.S. House of Representatives regarding the war with Mexico and the secession of Texas.

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/walter-williams/the-truth-about-abraham-lincoln-slavery/
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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makattak

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #112 on: August 27, 2013, 01:34:10 PM »
England and the American Colonies divided and got over the animosity  ;)

Yes they did. But not without another war.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Tallpine

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #113 on: August 27, 2013, 01:38:42 PM »
Yes they did. But not without another war.

I think England just thought that it was the second round of the first one  ;/
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

freakazoid

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #114 on: August 27, 2013, 02:50:51 PM »
n an 1858 letter, Lincoln said, “I have declared a thousand times, and now repeat that, in my opinion neither the General Government, nor any other power outside of the slave states, can constitutionally or rightfully interfere with slaves or slavery where it already exists.” In a Springfield, Ill., speech, he explained, “My declarations upon this subject of negro slavery may be misrepresented, but can not be misunderstood. I have said that I do not understand the Declaration (of Independence) to mean that all men were created equal in all respects.” Debating with Sen. Stephen Douglas, Lincoln said, “I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of … making voters or jurors of Negroes nor of qualifying them to hold office nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races, which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality.”

Lincoln’s words: “I view the matter (Emancipation Proclamation) as a practical war measure, to be decided upon according to the advantages or disadvantages it may offer to the suppression of the rebellion.” He also wrote: “I will also concede that emancipation would help us in Europe, and convince them that we are incited by something more than ambition.” At the time Lincoln wrote the proclamation, war was going badly for the Union.

London and Paris were considering recognizing the Confederacy and considering assisting it in its war effort.

The Emancipation Proclamation was not a universal declaration. It detailed where slaves were freed, only in those states “in rebellion against the United States.” Slaves remained slaves in states not in rebellion — such as Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware. The hypocrisy of the Emancipation Proclamation came in for heavy criticism. Lincoln’s own secretary of state, William Seward, said, “We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free.”

Lincoln did articulate a view of secession that would have been welcomed in 1776: “Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. … Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit.” But that was Lincoln’s 1848 speech in the U.S. House of Representatives regarding the war with Mexico and the secession of Texas.

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/walter-williams/the-truth-about-abraham-lincoln-slavery/

So basically he was another politician. :facepalm:
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El Tejon

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #115 on: August 27, 2013, 03:12:56 PM »
I say, I say, unhand me, Yankee.
I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.

Balog

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #116 on: August 27, 2013, 03:17:37 PM »
He just "evolved" on the issue when it became politically expedient he had a sincere change of heart, is all.

Also, welcome back El T. Couldn't resist the lure of trolling folks who questions the purity of the North, could you?  ;)
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Tallpine

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2013, 03:33:11 PM »
So basically he was another politician. :facepalm:

He voted for Slavery before he voted against it.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2013, 04:13:31 PM »
I know! Let's read a few random quotations from a historical figure, make no attempt to understand the context, and just make them support what we want to believe!
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2013, 04:15:46 PM »
I know! Let's read a few random quotations from a historical figure, make no attempt to understand the context, and just make them support what we want to believe!

Was there something ambiguous in those quotes? Pretty plain talk for a politician

damn phone
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Scout26

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Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #120 on: August 27, 2013, 04:35:54 PM »
10 years ago I fully supported the War on Drugs.  I thought pot smokers should do at least 20 years and hard drug users, life or simply be executed (they were going to die/kill themselves anyway).

Fast forward 10 years and now I think pot should be legalized and taxed (so maybe they can reduce taxes in other areas, HA!)  You want to smoke it, fine.  You do anything stupid and you get to face the consequences.  Oh, and higher Obamacare rates for you.

Hard drugs.  I'm of mixed feelings.  Some/many/most hard drug users tend to meet up with Darwin pretty quick.  I don't want to pay for their OD's and/or healthcare.  Also am also concerned that your choice to do pot or hard drugs will at some point become your "right" to do drugs and will be paid for by the .gov.

Anywho, my view on legalization has evolved.   Does that make me a politician?
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Re: Re: Oppose gun control? YOU'RE A CONFEDERATE!
« Reply #121 on: August 27, 2013, 10:00:41 PM »
Was there something ambiguous in those quotes? Pretty plain talk for a politician

damn phone


I'm not saying his words were ambiguous. I'm saying most of the statements used don't support the conclusion that Dr. Williams thinks they do. He seems to think he's showing that Lincoln was a racist, with a callous indifference to the suffering of slaves, and motivated only by base politics and greed. And he apparently thinks that the evidence shows that so plainly, he doesn't even have to draw the conclusion himself.

So Lincoln was a racist. He didn't believe blacks were equal to whites. Oh, I guess that means he didn't want to abolish slavery, right? No, that doesn't follow. But it at least means that he didn't care about what happened to black people, right? No, that doesn't follow, either. Lincoln was as much a racist as his Republican colleagues, who completely and permanently banned slavery just a few years later. Racist =/= pro-slavery. It is also entirely possible that a person could view another race as inferior, yet still have pity on that other race, and want to better their condition. So the quotations show some warts on Lincoln, but they don't show that he was indifferent to, or approving of, slavery.

Pretty much the same thing goes for the quotation about the pragmatic nature of the Emancipation Proclamation. He felt he had to view the question of emancipating slaves in terms of its usefulness for the war effort. Does that mean he didn't care about people languishing under the "peculiar institution"? No, it does not. It just means that he was not a fool-hardy, short-sighted idealist, like John Brown. Or Scott Roeder. Specifically, he was writing to some religious anti-slavery types, and providing a number of reasons why he thought emancipation might actually aid the Southern war effort. (Which would do no favors for the millions of slaves in the CSA.) You can read the full letter here: http://www.classicreader.com/book/3767/173/ 

Ironically, when speaking of the "hypocrisy of the Emancipation Proclamation," Williams ignores his first quotation from Lincoln, which explains precisely why the Proclamation did not apply to states loyal to the Union. But if I could digress from Williams' article for a minute, I'd like to address the point that "if Lincoln could rape the Constitution for this over here, then he should have had no qualms about raping the Constitution to free some slaves." This argument does not really work. Firstly, because it presumes that Lincoln saw himself as raping the Constitution, and felt free to do so. In the real world, just because you think someone is violating the Constitution doesn't mean they think they are. Or at least, they may not admit it to themselves. It doesn't mean they will do things they clearly believe to be violations of the Constitution, especially if they have said as much in public. I don't know where Lincoln was on (or off of) that continuum, but Williams has shown that he did recognize that slavery within the states was beyond the reach of the U.S. government, as constituted. And if the 13th Amendment is any indication, the rest of the country also believed it was outside the purview of the national government. So, secondly, the non-working argument above fails to take into account that a President can only get away with those violations of law that he can, er, get away with. And if the country doesn't think a President can outlaw slavery at whim (and they apparently did not), he probably won't get away with such.

Lastly, the conspiracy theory about the Civil War being a bid for excise tax money. Meh. Never heard that one. Sounds a little thin. If we're taking a cynical view of the whole thing, what's wrong with the lust for power explanation? The desire to retain power over half your territory?


Slightly edited for greater clarity and make-sensey-ness.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 12:48:28 AM by fistful »
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