Author Topic: Israel in America  (Read 2470 times)

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,530
  • My prepositions are on/in
Israel in America
« on: September 02, 2006, 08:29:44 AM »
What if the Zionists had changed their minds, and just helped Jews to settle in America?  Would that have been better?  I think so, but I don't know a lot about the whole Israeli/Palestinian situation.  

Your comments, please.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Car Knocker

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
Israel in America
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2006, 11:16:41 AM »
Would that have been better?

Better for whom?  Certainly for the Jews in that they wouldn't be surrounded by countries sworn (publically or privately) to eradicate them.  On the other hand, they have no historic/religious ties to America, so what's the incentive to pull up stakes and move here?  Then again, one would have to ask if a large influx of Jews to America would result in persecution/discrimination here?  The answer, of course, would be Yes - the question would be, to what degree?

Would it have been better, at the time, for the people already here?  Maybe yes, maybe no.
Don

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,530
  • My prepositions are on/in
Israel in America
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2006, 02:30:53 PM »
Better, probably, for the Jews who pulled up stakes to go to Israel, and for their descendants?  We're not under constant attack here, and I doubt we would have noticed the influx.  Besides, persecute the people we just liberated from our enemies?  I don't think there would have been so much of that, and a burning cross in the lawn beats a bomb in the bus station anyday.  

You ask why they would move to America.  I thought part of the reason for the founding of Israel was to escape persecution such as had just been endured in the Holocaust.  That same motive has prompted many people to immigrate to America.  Then there are the normal motives of personal liberty and economic prosperity, which would seem as attractive to Jews as to anybody else.  Most immigrants have lacked historic ties, so I can't see why that matters.  Besides, it's not as if Grandpa had told them stories of life in Jerusalem, was it?  Hadn't their ancestors left Israel so long ago that it was just as unfamiliar to them as America?  

Better for the people already living there?  Like I said, I'm not sure about the history of the region, but it seems if nothing else, things would have been quieter then and now.  

Better for the world in general?  I guess that depends on how much the unrest of the Islamic world is based on the Isreali "occupation," compared to the value of the close ally we have in Israel under current conditions.

Better for America?  If I understand rightly, Israelis tend to leftism in most matters, so that might have been a detriment to us, but on the other hand, the Israelis of today might have their minds right, politically, had they been raised in America.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Car Knocker

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
Israel in America
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2006, 03:13:13 PM »
Actually, there have Jews in Palestine for over 2,000 years.  The Crusaders made a serious dent in the Jewish population but immigration from Europe brought it back up, to a degree.  As I recall, during the Ottoman Empire, which ended in 1918, the Jewish population grew even more.  Even during the Diaspora some Jews remained in the Galilee.  The continued Jewish presence in Palestine has served as a direct traditional/historic/cultural link to the area.

There's really not a lot of incentive to move to America rather than, say, Madagascar or Iceland.  There isn't the pull that Israel has, the actual sites of Jewish history beckoning.  America would probably offer peace and the opportunity for advancement, but I don't know as that is sufficient inducement for a people seeking a homeland.

I've got to go now, but thanks for posting such an interesting and thought-provoking question.
Don

Antibubba

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,836
Israel in America
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2006, 03:41:25 PM »
Quote
Better for America?  If I understand rightly, Israelis tend to leftism in most matters, so that might have been a detriment to us, but on the other hand, the Israelis of today might have their minds right, politically, had they been raised in America.
Pre-Israel, the Zionists were European and American dreamers, almost entirely on the far left.  Left to their own devices, at peace with their Arab neighbors, Israel would probably be far less socialistic.  But under a constant threat at home from the neighbors as well as internally, and a new group of endangered Jews from a distant spot on the globe, there is a sense of "We are all in this together".  Everyone contributes, (almost) everyone fights, everyone is within rocket range.

I suppose if the Jewish homeland were in, say, Kansas, it'd be a shining spot in a free-market economy. (Then again, every year on television you'd watch The Wizard of Oyys, and follow the exciting adventures of Mitzi and her brave little dog, Kugel)    Cheesy
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,530
  • My prepositions are on/in
Israel in America
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2006, 04:11:59 PM »
Quote from: Antibubba
I suppose if the Jewish homeland were in, say, Kansas, it'd be a shining spot in a free-market economy. (Then again, every year on television you'd watch The Wizard of Oyys, and follow the exciting adventures of Mitzi and her brave little dog, Kugel)    Cheesy
My father-in-law's name is Mitse, but that's a Greek thing, apparently.  I wasn't talking about Jews establishing some kind of seperate community, like a kibbutz in Kansas.  I was thinking of the normal pattern of assimilation into the landscape, although of course immigrants tend to cluster at first.  I think the Jews who first moved to Israel would have been an asset here, but then I think most of the good folks of the world have come to our shores.  Explains why the other nations are so backward, in various ways.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Israel in America
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2006, 04:41:11 PM »
Even if they had decided they wanted to settle in America, would we have taken them?  We didn't take too many after WWII, so I'd be inclined to say no.
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,530
  • My prepositions are on/in
Israel in America
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2006, 04:43:52 PM »
Again, would there not have been sufficient sympathy for Jews after the liberation of the camps?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

m1911owner

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 307
Israel in America
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2006, 04:56:42 PM »
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Israel is in Israel, and Jerusalem is in Jerusalem.  Your question is rather like asking, "What if we put Hawaii in South America?"

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,530
  • My prepositions are on/in
Israel in America
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2006, 05:18:29 PM »
Then you read me in an over-literal fashion.  Or, you are thinking that the Jews must re-establish the Israeli state as a matter of Biblical prophecy.  Though I come from that tradition myself, I am no longer convinced of it.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Israel in America
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2006, 09:01:44 PM »
Quote
What if the Zionists had changed their minds, and just helped Jews to settle in America?
This would never have worked.

Why?

Because Classical Zionism is inherently socialist. THe idea was not just to creae a Jewish State, but also a Socialist society.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Iain

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,490
Israel in America
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2006, 02:43:01 AM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog
Because Classical Zionism is inherently socialist. THe idea was not just to creae a Jewish State, but also a Socialist society.
Can you expand on this? I've heard it discussed that aspects of Jewish teaching lend themselves to a socialist interpretation, although I'm not up on specifics.

fistful - you've described yourself as a 'recovering Christian Zionist' in another thread, and alluded to the same here, if it's not to personal it would possibly be pertinent to this subject matter if you explained the change of heart. Partly, I'm just curious, I could be wrong but it seems to be a recent change, and there has been a lot of Christian/Jewish discussion on here lately.
I do not like, when with me play, and I think that you also

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,530
  • My prepositions are on/in
Israel in America
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2006, 02:00:57 PM »
Quote from: Car Knocker
Actually, there have Jews in Palestine for over 2,000 years.  The Crusaders made a serious dent in the Jewish population but immigration from Europe brought it back up, to a degree.  As I recall, during the Ottoman Empire, which ended in 1918, the Jewish population grew even more.  Even during the Diaspora some Jews remained in the Galilee.  The continued Jewish presence in Palestine has served as a direct traditional/historic/cultural link to the area.
I knew there were already Jews in the region; I was suggesting that all Jews would have been better served by relocating to America, rather than carving out a Zionist nation.


Quote
There's really not a lot of incentive to move to America rather than, say, Madagascar or Iceland.
That's just nuts.  Ever heard of Ellis Island?  America may not be the Promised Land of scripture, but it's not Madagascar, either.  But how much of a promised land is Israel, when it's been fifty years and there is still an abomination on the Temple Mount?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Sylvilagus Aquaticus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 833
    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/sylvilagus
Israel in America
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2006, 04:36:26 PM »
Saturday Night Live already proposed it.

October 11,1975.
   
75a: George Carlin / Billy Preston, Janis Ian


Cut to another spinning newspaper with headline: ISRAEL AND GEORGIA TRADE PLACES; Cut to a press conference where, beneath their respective flags, an Israeli and a Georgian sit at a table surrounded by journalists and photographers, signing papers]

Narrator: In an unprecedented move to ease world tensions, the country of Israel and the state of Georgia have agreed to change places. The entire state of Georgia -- residents, businesses, all forms of commerce -- will relocate in the Middle East on January 1st, 1977. No buildings will be moved. It will be an even property exchange. [Music out.]

Israeli: This is indeed an auspicious occasion of the twentieth century and I hope that New Orleans will be easier to deal with than Cairo. [applause]

Georgian: I know - I know that my entire state is looking forward to heat without humidity. [applause]

Regards,
Rabbit.
To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.
Albert Einstein

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Israel in America
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2006, 06:04:48 PM »
Quote
Can you expand on this? I've heard it discussed that aspects of Jewish teaching lend themselves to a socialist interpretation, although I'm not up on specifics.
Essentially, classical Zionism, as expressed by Ben Gurion and his cronies, was not directly based on religion. As a matter of fact, it was explicitly antireligious. The goal of the Classical Zionists was not merely to establish a Jewish society in Israel, but a socialist Jewish Society.

The tip of the spear of the Zionist movement has been historically composed of people like Borochov (Poalei Zion) and Ben-Gurion.

The people have ruled Israel exclusively for the first several decades of its existence. During their rule, they established the following:

1.   Practical state monopoly on education (no, this is not my paranoid fantasy. Current Minister of Education Yulia Tamir has stated she will not keep a blind eye to the opening of private educational institutions.
2.   Insane taxes (at one time, government expenditures exceeded 80% of the GDP), and now amount to only 53%
3.   Nationalisation of the Electric company.
4.   A state monopoly on weapons of self-defense, as embodied in the Altalena incident.
5.   A prohibition of privately owned nationwide radio [to this day].
6.   A state monopoly on TV broadcasting (up to the 1990s).
7.   Nationalisation of all banking (later reversed)
8.   State funding of the kibbutz movement and of the Working and Learning Youth (an organization that is still publicly funded, despite its association with the Socialist International).
9.   Mandatory medical insurance.
10.   A ban on homeschooling (in practice if not in law).
11.   State ownership over 90% or more of all land.

Need I continue?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

grampster

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,461
Israel in America
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2006, 06:54:48 PM »
A benevolent dictatorship?  Perhaps the first known in history?  After reading a couple of novels about early America; the building of the first continental railroad (The largest escapade in construction, engineering and determined spirit seen  throughout history.), and the American Civil War, I can, in that context, see the Jewish nation as a microcosm of early America but with some refinements that history will judge.  

The American spirit, which seems to have a mirror in someways with Israel, always had a purpose.  Now we may understand that the the conclusions and implementation of those conclusions, may, in hindsight not have been carried out properly, but the vision was certainly not  flawed.  To reject our ways philosophicaly and practically flies in the face of the lessons of history.

The purpose was expansion and the promotion of prosperity.  America may have never been more inclusive of all of what we were at that time.  We actively sought others. Opportunity abounded.  Implementation may have, again, been coarse, flawed and ruthless, but the concept was alway pure.  The effort was monumental.

In Israel today, I see the same spirit.  What I fail to understand is the rejection in that region of the reality of personal freedom and the killing and mayhem being used as a foil for those that hold to the past rather than reaching for the future.  What I further fail to understand is the pacifism of those who hold to certain beliefs but understand the value of freedom.

I judge no man by what he believes.  I do judge every man by what he does in the name of those beliefs.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Israel in America
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2006, 06:57:33 PM »
Quote
A benevolent dictatorship?  Perhaps the first known in history?
You're talking about people who covered up a pedophile ring on an air force base.

People who, in the 1940's, killed, tortured, and betrayed their own for being different in doctrine (the Season).

Israel is not benevolent nor free.

It's only excuse is that it sucks much less then the nations it neighbors.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

grampster

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,461
Israel in America
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2006, 07:09:22 PM »
Israel is made up of human beings, just like eveywhere else.  To expect individuals to somehow rise above the status quo is a fantasy that deserves...fruition.  
Does it occur? Certainly.  Do many fall short?  Without question.  To give moral equivalence to disparate cultures may be charitable, but naive in the macrocosm.

When placing Israel in the same context with Saudi Arabia for example, the vast disparate culture is quickly evident.  If given a choice of where to participate, I leave it up to you.

PS:  Micro, don't I remember that you live in Israel and actually served in the JDF?
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,530
  • My prepositions are on/in
Israel in America
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2006, 07:44:18 PM »
Ian,

It's not so much a change of heart as of mind.  I would like to know why you think it is recent - I don't recall ever making any statements on this board that contradict my current position.  I believe I have been re-evaluating my point of view since before this board was even around.

I just turned thirty - happy birthday to me.  When growing up, I attended churches of the charismatic and dispensationalist persuasion.  In this milieu, I didn't learn much about the history of the church, or its historic teachings, nor was there a systematic explanation of doctrine.  I don't even remember hearing the word "dispensation," until I took a crash course in theology from a pastor just a few years ago.  I may have heard about churches that had some wrong-headed (non-dispensational) ideas about eschatology, but I presumed that the disp view was the normal one.  

Lately, I have learned that some consider dispensationalism to be a very recent interpretation and a wrong one.  As of yet, I have not studied the matter very much, but I am leaning away from the dispensational point of view.  Where I once believed the Jews have a right to the land of Canaan as a matter of divine grant, I am now inclined to think that Israel as a racial and political entity is superseded by the Church (all Jews and Gentiles who profess Christ), as God intended from the beginning.  Further discussion of the theological angle is likely to lead us into deep waters, so it may be counter-productive to say more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

So, I am left with considering Israel in a secular manner.  I don't think they have any more right to the land than the hundreds or thousands of other people groups that have been over-run or displaced, so I'm not sure they should have set up shop in Canaan in the first place.  That said, I do support Israel as an ally in the midst of our enemies.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Israel in America
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2006, 08:09:15 PM »
Quote from: fistful
Again, would there not have been sufficient sympathy for Jews after the liberation of the camps?
Seeing as how this is a "what if" scenario, I'm still going to say, no.  Yes, there were those that were sympathetic but I don't think there were enough to bring all of the Jews to the US, even if they wanted to come here.
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,530
  • My prepositions are on/in
Israel in America
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2006, 08:26:22 PM »
All of them?  I hope you don't mean all Jews, worldwide.  Oh, vey, I don't think we could handle them.  Smiley  I'm not sure how many we would have gotten, compared to the numbers that shipped out for the Holy Land.  We might have gotten fewer, due to Palestine's obvious importance to Jews and the less dramatic nature of settling in America.  On the other hand, we might have gotten more - drama means danger.  And I doubt it would have happened all that quickly - America's not going anywhere.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Israel in America
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2006, 09:19:23 PM »
All of the Jews, meaning all of those that wanted to go to Israel/Palestine/whatever you want to call it.
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Iain

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,490
Israel in America
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2006, 12:57:19 AM »
fistful - more than likely misremembering, I don't mean anything more than a genuine interest in a Christian point of view that isn't what I am normally exposed to.
I do not like, when with me play, and I think that you also

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,530
  • My prepositions are on/in
Israel in America
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2006, 03:36:42 AM »
I wonder what "Christian point of view" you normally hear, and where.  Do you run in Christian circles at home, or do you just meet people online, or what?

The charismatic church I went to for most of my childhood was in an association of churches based in England.  My parents now attend a church that their next-door neighbors also attend.  They have a brother-in-law who's an English Journalist.  Here he is right now:

http://www.endtimesnews.eu.com/AboutAlan.html
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,530
  • My prepositions are on/in
Israel in America
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2006, 03:42:16 AM »
Quote from: In another thread, Iain
 I was also raised in a charismatic Christian church.
Well, well.  Are you still in the fold?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife