Thoughts on college

[Balog]

I'm at the point with modern academia where I believe that getting anything other than a STEM degree in a lucrative and growing field, financed entirely by pay as you go and or scholarships, is a horrible horrible idea. And frankly even then I don't know that it's worth the relentless indoctrination. I'm starting this thread as a repository of links about the current state of college education, both so I have a ready reference for this sort of thing and to have a discussion about the topic larger than any individual article. Here are some of the better summaries I've seen recently.

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2014/01/academics-in-wonderland.html

Some of the better quotes below, but please do read the whole thing as they say.

Academia tells us how everything ought to be, based on their foundational theories, with little regard for how the world is. Incompatible results, whether in climate science or social sciences, are buried and suppressed, ridiculed away or blamed on the big business boogeyman or Ronald Reagan. There is no honest attempt to engage with any of the disasters left behind or any of those coming up ahead.

Thus the lunatic idea from a paper that is written entirely in unreadable Marxist gibberish and dismissed as irrelevant by any sane person is dressed up, popularized and taken around town by people who know how to translate its specialized language into something readable by the sort of people who will then turn it into dishonest slogans and market the whole thing as sound common sense that we ought to adopt right now to invest in our future and save our children.

It's Academics in Wonderland all the way down.

The insane are leading the blind off a cliff that the blind can't see and that the insane insist isn't there.

http://bastionofliberty.blogspot.com/2014/01/propaganda-and-education.html

One aspect of the discussion I find distressing is the emphasis on the connection (or lack thereof) between a college education and "jobs" or "careers." A great deal of the criticism of American education stems from the weak correlation between one's acquisition of a college degree and one's subsequent occupational attainment. There appears to be a widely held assumption, explicit more often than not, that a college education's primary purpose is to ready those who pass through it to perform economically.

Classic watch-the-cart-pull-the-horse political sleight of hand.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/346533.php

Not directly about college, but very closely related I think. This is a rebuttal of that Thom Nichols article on experts that folks have been chattering about. Both the original article as well as Ace's rebuttal are very much worth reading in their entirety.

Here is why people are so quick to dismiss the expertise of an expert:

Because experts themselves do not recognize the limitations of expertise, and need to be reminded of them.

[charby]

I work at a Land Grant Public University and I am working on another degree. I really don't see the "stuff" that people seem to think what happens at a place of higher education.

I think it depends what university you choose. Also depends upon which major, doesn't have to be in the STEM field.

Here is a link to STEM Majors http://www.ice.gov/doclib/sevis/pdf/stem-list.pdf

[roo_ster]

I'm at the point with modern academia where I believe that getting anything other than a STEM degree in a lucrative and growing field, financed entirely by pay as you go and or scholarships, is a horrible horrible idea. And frankly even then I don't know that it's worth the relentless indoctrination. I'm starting this thread as a repository of links about the current state of college education, both so I have a ready reference for this sort of thing and to have a discussion about the topic larger than any individual article. Here are some of the better summaries I've seen recently.

I think pretty much the same WRT debt, schooling, & such.

We (wife and I) have thought that instead of straight to 4-year-university for our kids (barring full-ride or nearly so scholarships for academics or athletics), we will help pay for some sort of trade/technical training, then see where things lead.  The local comm colleges have some well-regarded programs for EMT, auto mechanics, and others.  We want our kids able to support themselves ASAP and help contribute to their degree if that is the way they want to go.  For instance, my boy is mechanically inclined.  Getting him a Honda mechanic cert and a real job or such before completing his mech engineering degree at State School seems worthwhile.  We would work them hard, also cramming down some of the basic prerequisites for 4-year university.  And some of the cert courses translate over to academics.  (A&P is A&P, for instance.)

Also, working with folk who are not college grads is helpful in other ways.  Broadening in a way similar to travel, but without going anywhere.  My sister went straight through university to professional positions and from my POV she has some serious limitations when she gets outside her comfort zone of affluent/upper middle class professional society.

One thing: not all college is relentlessly left-wing.  The hard sciences, engineering, and business schools are much more moderate.  Oh, they are left of center, but not crazily like the humanities have become.

I must note that the highest level of academics is more akin to ticket-punching than learning.  Look at BHO's cabinet and those hired on by the top law & investment firms.  If you are not Ivy, do not apply.  Getting into an Ivy is the discriminator, not what you study there.  Our population went from 80 million to 280 million in 100 years, yet the Ivies and near-Ivies have not appreciably increased capacity.  So, our rulers and industrial decision-makers come from a smaller and smaller slice relative to the country at large.

[Balog]

By A&P you're referring to Airframe and Powerplant certs for folks wrenching on flying machines correct? That's always how I've seen it used but wondering if there is another usage I'm not familiar with.

I'd say not all individual courses or departments are, but most (all?) 4 year degrees in even then most technical fields require a goodly amount of cross-polination in the ironically named Humanities.

[roo_ster]

By A&P you're referring to Airframe and Powerplant certs for folks wrenching on flying machines correct? That's always how I've seen it used but wondering if there is another usage I'm not familiar with.

I'd say not all individual courses or departments are, but most (all?) 4 year degrees in even then most technical fields require a goodly amount of cross-polination in the ironically named Humanities.

Anatomy & Physiology what what I meant, but I learned something new today.  Thanks.

[KD5NRH]

Anatomy & Physiology what what I meant, but I learned something new today.  Thanks.

Yup, it was amusing listening to the confusion between my nursing student ex girlfriend and my pilot/mechanic ex roommate.

On the other hand, once they got past the biological vs. mechanical aspect, they had an interesting discussion about the similarities.

[Balog]

Anatomy & Physiology what what I meant, but I learned something new today.  Thanks.

Huh, I learned something myself. We had a room mate who was a helo mech in the Coasties, was where I picked that up.

[charby]

Anatomy & Physiology what what I meant, but I learned something new today.  Thanks.

Taken more Biological science classes than one can shake a petri dish at, every time I hear A&P I think of Anatomy & Physiology.

[brimic]

I'm at the point with modern academia where I believe that getting anything other than a STEM degree in a lucrative and growing field, financed entirely by pay as you go and or scholarships, is a horrible horrible idea.

I'm 100% with you on that.

20 years ago a BA or BS degree meant something, regardless of the field of study, nowadays, not so much.

[zahc]

Except it DOES mean something. There are lots of jobs you just can't get without one. I'm trying to hire a guy right now with 15 years experience in the field. Since he doesn't have a 4 year degree, we have to take the job posting down and re-post it as a "technician" job instead of an "engineering" job. The job won't change, just BS workarounds due to HR. If there was more labor supply, we wouldn't even bother. At my last company, HR always provided stacks of decent resumes. We generally found good candidates. Were worthy candidates screened out because they don't have a degree? Yes, but we still generally got plenty of decent applicants. That's what happens in an industry that has contracted over the last 20 years due to outsourcing. If the same HR drones didn't force managers to hire new college graduates to fix a perceived "demographic problem" of too many experienced grey-hairs, I probably wouldn't have got hired.

The more the value of a degree is diluted from supply of degreed candidates, the less value it has for employers and the more it's required for candidates. Equillibrium lies somewhere where most adults go to college and it's basically the new high school. The end result is that less work overall is spread among the same man-years of labor force, and the gap is filled with education. It could be worse I guess. This same shift already happened when children stopped working and a high-school education became more or less mandatory. The tuition bubble is a growing pain and one I hope bursts in the next 15 years or so before my babies need to start heading off to college.

[Boomhauer]

Except it DOES mean something. There are lots of jobs you just can't get without one. I'm trying to hire a guy right now with 15 years experience in the field. Since he doesn't have a 4 year degree, we have to take the job posting down and re-post it as a "technician" job instead of an "engineering" job. The job won't change, just BS workarounds due to HR. If there was more labor supply, we wouldn't even bother. At my last company, HR always provided stacks of decent resumes. We generally found good candidates. Were worthy candidates screened out because they don't have a degree? Yes, but we still generally got plenty of decent applicants. That's what happens in an industry that has contracted over the last 20 years due to outsourcing. If the same HR drones didn't force managers to hire new college graduates to fix a perceived "demographic problem" of too many experienced grey-hairs, I probably wouldn't have got hired.

The more the value of a degree is diluted from supply of degreed candidates, the less value it has for employers and the more it's required for candidates. Equillibrium lies somewhere where most adults go to college and it's basically the new high school. The end result is that less work overall is spread among the same man-years of labor force, and the gap is filled with education. It could be worse I guess. This same shift already happened when children stopped working and a high-school education became more or less mandatory. The tuition bubble is a growing pain and one I hope bursts in the next 15 years or so before my babies need to start heading off to college.

HR is *expletive deleted* bullshit.

Our HR department employees are useless sacks of *expletive deleted* who can't find their ass with both hands and a GPS. Will they let us hire a great candidate with practical experience and knowledge and work ethic but doesn't have a BS piece of paper? Hell no. But let some unqualified twit who doesn't have a clue of what she is doing and has no work ethic start making noises about suing, and HR goes "You have to hire her"

HR is more focused on affirmative action and pie in the sky "qualifications". than they are about hiring the best person for the job.

To me, an HR department SHOULD be focused on making laws are followed, records are kept up with, hirings and firings go smoothly, whatever. Not throwing monkey wrenches into the process for the hell of it. That's counterproductive.





When our society finally realizes that everyone going to college is not a good idea and they stop the higher education welfare then we might see some change. I see no sign of that slowing down right now (seems every company wants "a four year degree and 5 years of experience" in an entry level job these days)

[charby]

When our society finally realizes that everyone going to college is not a good idea and they stop the higher education welfare then we might see some change. I see no sign of that slowing down right now (seems every company wants "a four year degree and 5 years of experience" in an entry level job these days)

Maybe your head had been in the sand, the welfare train for higher ed started drying up in the late 1990s. What do you think caused the big increase in tuition since 2000? Many states have cut their funding to universities and feds haven't been that generous either. Big push at public universities is more external funding via grants.

[Balog]

I believe he's referring to the federally guaranteed student loans.

[Boomhauer]

I believe he's referring to the federally guaranteed student loans.

Indeed. Most of the students I went to school with had no idea of the costs...after all the student loans were covering what the scholarships/grants did not. These people were running up huge amounts of student loan debt (and not only federal, but private and at the time, state) for a near worthless degree. And then many of them would make the situation worse by signing up for classes and then dropping out to collect the money for those classes intended for books/supplies so they had money for partying.

Amd when virtually every student has access to huge loan amounts the college tuition is going to be sky high because its garunteed money for the college.

[roo_ster]

Roughly 75% of folk in college have no business being there, along with 75% of the admin & staff.  Spend available state dollars on the remaining 25% and the cost would go down at the state universities on a per student basis.  And sell off excess physical plant, too.

The cost of higher ed has been growing faster than the rate of inflation and other notable sectors long before the 1990s:

[AmbulanceDriver]

Oh man.  Could I rant about this one.  But most of it has been said.  I know anecdote (and it's plural) aren't data, but they do represent data points.

My wife was told, "go to college, it's the only way to get a job".  "Get a four year degree, it's the only way to get a good job".  "It doesn't matter what the degree is, just get a degree!"

She did go to college.  But at least she did it the smarter way.  First, she paid almost everything out of pocket.  Second, she spent the first two years at community college, instead of a university.  Then, by taking more than a "full load", she finished the last two years at the state university, in a year and a half.  All together, she took out just over 10k in student loans.  The rest was pay as you go.

However, her degree is in "general studies".  Because she believed the lie of "you need a 4 year degree in something, anything to get a good job, and it doesn't matter what the degree is."

I haven't talked it over with her yet, but I think I've just come up with a plan for when it comes time for college for our kid(s).  Mostly it's gonna look like what she did, but the caveat being, "we'll help you out with college as best as we can, so long as you're studying something that actually has usefulness towards a job/career."  

Whether the classes be at a college/university/vocational school, as long as they're towards a career, and not just "get a degree for the sake of getting a degree".

[MillCreek]

As we have noted elsewhere on this board, the STEM degrees and jobs are no guarantees either, unless it is in a computer or engineering occupation.  I am looking to fill a position in my department now for a nursing informatics person, and I am getting umpteen resumes from nurses, either new grads who cannot find jobs, or experienced nurses who have been laid off due to low census.  No one qualified for the position, though.

[charby]

The cost of higher ed has been growing faster than the rate of inflation and other notable sectors long before the 1990s:

State and Fed legislatures used to look at higher education as an investment and budgeted more money to them. Somewhere in the 1990's that idea changed and they because a tax revenue liability.

Universities are still needed for basic research and industry does applied research.

I also agree that many people do not belong in at a university but would do quite well at a trade school or trade apprentice ship and have a profitable career in the trades. The stigmatism of working in the trades needs to end, also vocation/agricultural education needs to come back to the high schools. Every student should be required to take at least one basic shop type class.

[zahc]

Someone help me out with this idea.

A while back, I heard a guy at work remark that when his daughter was 9 years old, he had already saved enough to pay 4 years of average college tuition for her. By the time she was 19 years old, tuition had gone up so much that the same amount of money would only pay for 2.

Now, in every other financial thing in life, if you know that the price is rising and will continue to do so, it is possible to hedge against this by simply investing in the thing that is rising in price. So if I know I need to buy 300 tons of soybeans when my kid turns 19, there is no need to worry about how high I "know" the price is going to be then, because I can buy futures for that. Or if nobody is selling them, just buy and hold soybean shares now.

What is different about college tuition that I can't do this? I'm having a conceptual failure in understanding this.

[tokugawa]

Roosters chart pretty well tells the tale- college is a scam, for the most part- insanely  inflated prices directly related to the "student indentured servitude program". AKA government loans non dischargable in bankruptcy.-want to see where the next generation of "insert dictator of choice" YOUTH is gonna come from?

 i believe nearly anything someone really wants to learn is going to be found almost free online- the colleges of course will fight this idea tooth and nail, in order to validate their money stream. They will do this by insisting on a "credential" issued by them, as a means of admittance to the hiring procedures. What one knows, is and will be portrayed as irrelevant, the possession of a certificate will be the job ticket. But this will only go so far- eventually, anyone who actually desires to get a job done, will see though the paper walls and hire the person who is competent, rather than one blessed by the gatekeepers.
 There are, of course some exceptions- hands on training is necessary for a lot of things- but a vast slug of the information that is currently accompanied by huge prices can be found at a fraction of that cost .
 
 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

State and Fed legislatures used to look at higher education as an investment and budgeted more money to them. Somewhere in the 1990's that idea changed and they because a tax revenue liability.

And in most case the legislatures are right to see modern higher education as a liability and not an investment.  Investments, by definition, carry the expectation of a positive return.  What's the return on a PhD in Iberian poetry of the mid 15th century?  Zilch.

These days college is not an investment (in most cases).  Most people treat college as an opportunity for personal growth and fulfillment.  They choose to study things that may be interesting and satisfying on a personal level but are completely useless in the real world.  And that's fine for people who do it with their eyes open, not expecting any sort of monetary gain.  

But if you go in thinking it's an investment that will pay off financially, you're in trouble.



Edited for clarity.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Someone help me out with this idea.

A while back, I heard a guy at work remark that when his daughter was 9 years old, he had already saved enough to pay 4 years of average college tuition for her. By the time she was 19 years old, tuition had gone up so much that the same amount of money would only pay for 2.

Now, in every other financial thing in life, if you know that the price is rising and will continue to do so, it is possible to hedge against this by simply investing in the thing that is rising in price. So if I know I need to buy 300 tons of soybeans when my kid turns 19, there is no need to worry about how high I "know" the price is going to be then, because I can buy futures for that. Or if nobody is selling them, just buy and hold soybean shares now.

What is different about college tuition that I can't do this? I'm having a conceptual failure in understanding this.

"College" is not bought and sold, there is no market for "college" that you can trade.  The wealth building up in the college bubble all goes to administrators, profs, and the holdings of the schools.  Outsiders have no way of exposing themselves to any of that.

[charby]

And in most case the legislatures are right to see modern higher education as a liability and not an investment.  Investments, by definition, carry the expectation of a positive return.  What's the return on a PhD in Iberian poetry of the mid 15th century?  Zilch.

These days college is not an investment (in most cases).  Most people treat college as an opportunity for personal fulfillment.  They choose to study things that may be interesting and satisfying on a personal level but are completely useless in the real world.  And that's fine for people who go into it with teir eyes open, not expecting to gain any sort of monetary advantage. 

But if you go into that thinking it's any sort of investment, you're in trouble.

A PhD in Iberian Poetry makes an expert in literature from that time period, there is merit in someone who is willing to put forth the effort to get a PhD in Literature. You can't just put an end to humanities and go 100% science. Is a PhD in American History just as equally worthless as you said about a person studying Spanish Poetry in the height of The Renaissance?

Still need people with advance degrees to teach and research the other subjects that go along with a bachelor degree, either a BS or BA.

Some people go into college/university with no knowledge of what is a good degree path, either their parents were not university educated or they had a shitty HS councilor.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I'm not saying that college is worthless.  I'm saying its value is not financial.  You buy it because you want it for personal reasons, not because you're going to make money from it.  Think of college as an expensive luxury item, not an investment. 

[Firethorn]

I'm not saying that college is worthless.  I'm saying its value is not financial.  You buy it because you want it for personal reasons, not because you're going to make money from it.  Think of college as an expensive luxury item, not an investment. 

I'm going to disagree here.  I dispute that 'most' people go to college for something 'completely useless in the real world'.  Statistically speaking you're generally still better off with a college degree, any degree, than without one.

HOWEVER 'individual results may vary' very much applies.  One of the horror stories I saw over on Fark involved a woman trying to get a degree in 'children's studies' or some such - a 2 year degree that would enable her to do things like run a child care facility.  Most of her failures were ultimately on her head, but she was trying for a degree that would improve her lot in life substantially. 

What IS happening however, is that basic economic theory has taken hold.  Roughly speaking, that at some point increasing production increases costs(as you train more college grads the expense per grad goes up), and decreases the product's value(as you saturate the market with the product, people are willing to pay less for it).  So 'Individual results will vary' is very much in effect.

Due to the massive subsidization, I'll agree that you can't be indiscriminate in earning a degree - being stupid about it can result in lower effective lifetime earnings(income-education expenses) than NOT going to college.  So your best bet at this point is:
1.  Be realistic about your earning power with or without college.  Decide if the difference is worth it.
2.  Get a degree that has a high probability of increasing your income substantially - try to find one that you think will be in high demand and not glutted in 4 years.
3.  Get a degree economically, IE at the lowest expense possible.  Go to a community college first.  Apply for grants, not loans.  Look for programs/scholarships that will pay your way.  For example, join the military and go to college while enlisted(100% of tuition paid, at least for now).  Etc...