Author Topic: Poor in America  (Read 7979 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2014, 06:44:18 PM »
And if there is a country that will give you more of a second chance than the usa I wanna hear about it. Heck 3rd 4th and 5th chances too.


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

KD5NRH

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2014, 10:31:43 AM »
...is having to drive a car more than five years old  :facepalm:

I'm triple-and-change poor, then; mine is 17 years old.


MechAg94

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2014, 08:14:13 PM »
It can also be that you're just not very bright.
No, there is plenty of decent paying work that can be done by not-bright people. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Fly320s

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2014, 09:42:51 PM »
No, there is plenty of decent paying work that can be done by not-bright people. 

Congress.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

roo_ster

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2014, 10:10:52 AM »
Congress.

Proving they don;t have to be pretty, either.
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roo_ster

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Scout26

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2014, 12:48:00 PM »
Politics is theather for ugly people.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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White Horseradish

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2014, 03:47:13 PM »
...is having to drive a car more than five years old  :facepalm:

Both our cars are 19 years old. My wife's bike is 34. Mine is 28.
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tokugawa

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2014, 11:12:06 AM »
It's not the "stuff" they have or do not have- the poverty is in their minds. Envy is terrible thing-never can it be satisfied.

Ever read "the woodpile report"?- every week he posts a few old photo's from the 30's -really eye opening to see how "poor" people were.

Tallpine

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2014, 11:52:45 AM »
Both our cars are 19 years old. My wife's bike is 34. Mine is 28.

You do realize my original comment was satire, right ...?    ;)

Our vehicles:
2006
1991
1989
1976

We're thinking of trading off the 2006 economy car for a mid-1990s Suburban, or maybe some mid-size SUV.   =|
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KD5NRH

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2014, 12:37:26 PM »
One of the things I find most telling is the difference in perception between men[0] and women.
For me, and for most men, poor is when we have to let one of the necessities go (or turn to others for help with it) for a while in order to maintain the others.  Not enough money in the paycheck for both the rent and the electric bill, [1] for example.  Sometimes we re-define necessities as our jobs and other factors dictate, (For example, I wouldn't last long in my job without a cell phone, nor would I be able to keep up with my ex's ever-changing schedule so I can see my kids.) but we tend to understand that the basic essentials are ~2000 calories a day, clean clothes,[2] a warm dry place to sleep and a shower.  If those are available, and we know we can continue to provide them for some minimum time into the future, we're doing OK.  Throw in the ability to get to work in a comfortable manner, some variety in the diet, and a few low-cost leisure activities, and we don't really feel poor.

Women, OTOH, seem to have cable/DSS, decorative items, junk food and various other things not essential to life on the "necessities" list.  I can see basic cosmetics as a job requirement, particularly with an office job, and (still assuming an office job here) their clothing will tend to be more expensive, both to purchase and to maintain.  OTOH, and using my ex wife as an example, she wanted to get cable when we barely had groceries.  We were "poor" because the car was old and ugly, and we only had one that worked.  We were "poor" because she had to resort to Goodwill and garage sales to afford an extra week's worth[3] of work clothes.  We were "poor" because we couldn't go out to eat a couple times a week.  We were "poor" because we were using two-year-old smartphones  We had a roof over our heads.  We had electricity and running water.  We had plenty of calories each day.  We had cell phones.  To hear her tell it, though, we were worse off than anyone in any third world country.

I see it a lot with the singles scene now, too; women who protest that they don't insist on a rich guy, just "stability," but when you start pressing them for what that means, it ends up pretty much requiring a near-six-figure salary.  Car newer than 5 years or so, nice house owned outright or on a fairly short mortgage, fairly large amount in savings, enough extra income that she won't have to work, etc.  I don't object to the idea of the man providing the essentials of life, but I do object to the alterations to the list of essentials when it basically turns into "the man's responsibility is to provide everything the woman wants, and the woman's only responsibility is to provide sex when she feels like it."  I'll keep the rent paid and food in the cabinets; if you want toys, you can contribute financially.

  • Real men.  I don't care about metrosexuals' perception of daily lattes and a HuffPo premium account as basic needs.
  • [1] I'm counting electricity as a necessity because most of my week-to-week groceries are refrigerated or frozen.  The loss of what's currently in my freezer would be at least as much as last month's electric bill.  While I have a gas stove, and could at least cook what I can eat in the time it takes to start spoiling, others would also be dependent on electricity to cook, so it would be a total loss barring a friend willing to lend a stove in trade for some of the food.  I do have at least enough shelf-storable food to get through a pay period, but a lot of it also requires cooking. (Beans, rice, etc.)
    [2] A job requirement, among plenty of other reasons.
    [3] Apparently it was too obvious if she just rearranged the same outfits each week.

MillCreek

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2014, 12:47:53 PM »

I see it a lot with the singles scene now, too; women who protest that they don't insist on a rich guy, just "stability," but when you start pressing them for what that means, it ends up pretty much requiring a near-six-figure salary.  Car newer than 5 years or so, nice house owned outright or on a fairly short mortgage, fairly large amount in savings, enough extra income that she won't have to work, etc.  I don't object to the idea of the man providing the essentials of life, but I do object to the alterations to the list of essentials when it basically turns into "the man's responsibility is to provide everything the woman wants, and the woman's only responsibility is to provide sex when she feels like it."  I'll keep the rent paid and food in the cabinets; if you want toys, you can contribute financially.

My spouses/significant others have all had professional jobs and salaries somewhat close to mine, and that was one of the things that I screened potential candidates for.  There is no way I would ever hook up with someone who planned on not working.  I can see a couple making a joint decision for a workforce respite for childcare, but otherwise, if I am out there working, you should be too.
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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zxcvbob

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2014, 12:49:45 PM »
One of the things I find most telling is the difference in perception between men[0] and women...


I don't disagree with anything you said.  I also know my viewpoint is biased.

I'd love to hear BSL's views on the matter.  (btw, whatever happened to Mrs Smith, was it spider-related?)
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2014, 01:27:57 PM »
My spouses/significant others have all had professional jobs and salaries somewhat close to mine, and that was one of the things that I screened potential candidates for.  There is no way I would ever hook up with someone who planned on not working.  I can see a couple making a joint decision for a workforce respite for childcare, but otherwise, if I am out there working, you should be too.

Interesting way of looking at it but not everyone will see it that way.  I fully support the idea of a stay-at-home parent.  Too many people sweat keeping up with the Joneses and let the state/daycare/school system do their child rearing. 
I grew up as a latch-key kid and resented it.
While my wife and I both work, her career is from home, and she's here at home more than 70% of the time.  And often when she isn't I am.
JD

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MillCreek

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2014, 01:54:49 PM »
Interesting way of looking at it but not everyone will see it that way.  I fully support the idea of a stay-at-home parent.  Too many people sweat keeping up with the Joneses and let the state/daycare/school system do their child rearing. 
I grew up as a latch-key kid and resented it.
While my wife and I both work, her career is from home, and she's here at home more than 70% of the time.  And often when she isn't I am.

It is a very individual decision and what works for one couple may not work for another.  My wife and I had both kids in daycare from the age of three months onward, and both of them have grown up to be happy and successful adults.  We raised our children, not the daycare or schools, although we value the positive contributions of both.
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

KD5NRH

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2014, 02:18:43 PM »
I grew up as a latch-key kid and resented it.

Frankly, I blame most of that on the fact that "normal business hours" are 8/9-5, while "school hours" are 8-3:30. (By the time I had the option of leaving off the last period and going home at 2:30, I was a junior in HS with a car, and preferred a bit of parent-free time anyway.)  Though one parent could still work part time and be home well ahead of the kids, there's really no reason schools couldn't run some sort of beneficial activity for an hour and a half to two hours to allow parents with full time jobs to avoid either a latch-key or day-care situation.  They wouldn't need a full teaching staff, (though a study hall and/or tutoring should be an available option, that wouldn't require a full staff) or even that many extra teacher-hours at all, since there would still be all the regular extracurricular activities drawing from the pool of students who don't ride the bus and don't have a retired grandma or whatever to come pick them up at 3:30 anyway.  Figure you might have 10-30% of students actually using the after school whatever on a regular basis.  You could even combine several campuses worth of students on whichever campus the buses stop at last. 

When I rode the bus, though, I was so near the end of the route that I rarely got home before 5 anyway.  The rest of the time, my retired aunt picked me up when she came to get my cousins and I spent the afternoon with them, or I walked 1.5 miles to grandma's office.

MillCreek

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2014, 02:45:39 PM »
^^^A few of the local school districts do something like this at some of their elementary schools: the program is run by the local YMCA rather than school staff.  They offer it for a couple of hours before and after school.
_____________
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

KD5NRH

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2014, 02:47:20 PM »
And if there is a country that will give you more of a second chance than the usa I wanna hear about it. Heck 3rd 4th and 5th chances too.

This, though maybe I'm overly generous;  IMO, everyone who has paid over a certain amount in taxes, (let's call it 10 years of a full time minimum wage earner's Federal taxes for the sake of argument) should have financial aid available for one attempt at a four year degree, with a very no-frills lifestyle covered. (Not dorms, but base it on the cheapest apartments available - ten years after starting to earn a paycheck, plenty of people have kids that wouldn't be welcome or properly accommodated in most dorms.)  In addition, I'd convert long term "disability" for anyone not actually confined to a bed over to a second chance shot at the same deal; you get another shot at a four year degree in something you're still able to do.  Screw up both of those, and you're on your own, period, end of story.  Fail to earn even a two-year degree when enough expenses are paid that part-time minimum wage burger flipping would allow a pretty good standard of living and give you plenty of study time, that's your problem.  Get good at flipping those burgers.

Honestly, I've been a full time student in two fairly different disciplines, if you work 20 hours a week and sleep 56 hours a week, that leaves 92 hours each week for classes and study. Figure even a 16-semester-hour course load won't have you in classes/labs/field assignments more than 20 hours a week, and you've still got 72 hours - three full days - to figure stuff out outside of class.  Even working full time would leave you with more than two days worth of waking hours to study...assuming you can't get a job making change at the laundromat where you can study 80% of each shift. [1]  If there's not a useful degree[2] that's low-effort enough for you to get your head around the coursework with all that time available to you, you're either refusing to apply yourself or just plain too damn dumb to go without continuous adult supervision.

Give them everything they should need to be able to provide for themselves, [3] and then cut off the public second chances.  What private charities want to offer from their privately raised funds is their own business.

[1] And I'm still ignoring summer semesters, since they're not always offered, often low-level remedial only when they are offered, and rarely figured in to the expected completion time of most degrees.  A system that encourages quick completion (say, you get four years of food assistance, even if you complete the degree in two or three years, allowing you to build savings and/or make major purchases like a car or house much faster when you start working) would dramatically increase the demand for summer class availability.
[2] NO "Womyn's Studies" or similar crap unless you can show compelling evidence that someone dumb enough to accept that degree yet rich enough to employ you indefinitely is holding a job for you.
[3] Plus a couple months of food and housing help until the paychecks start coming in.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 06:28:41 PM by KD5NRH »

KD5NRH

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2014, 03:29:56 PM »
There was a black girl in there. Her mom had brought her the latest high dollar shoes (because we all know having pricey kicks is the most important thing in life) yet this girl had nothing to eat (her mom would only occasionally bring her some fast food home, when she remembered). *expletive deleted*ing worthless parent.

Let's not forget my favorites at the grocery store; several hundred worth of ink, scab still crusting on the latest full color tat, digging through scratch off tickets in her purse to find the food stamp card for $250 worth of junk food and sodas, then handing her boyfriend a pair of fresh $20s for the beer and cigs he's coming through with right behind her.

When we were briefly on food stamps, I was mildly offended to find out that I could buy sodas with them.  (I was working full time, but ex had gone beyond her maternity leave so we fell just under the cutoff, and saving ~$200/month in grocery money made the difference between having ~$140/month in luxuries or cutting out everything nonessential and going into debt anyway.  I would still be happy to see at least a limit on the percentage of "prepared" foods available on a food stamp card.  (I would support "ingredients only" all the way, but I have to admit it was really handy to take Spaghetti-Os and those Hormel heat-and-eat meals to work.  Still, that was five out of 21 meals each week, so frying some eggs or tossing pasta in the rice cooker and dumping store-brand sauce on it was fine for more than 3/4 of my meals, and pretty much all of hers.)

zxcvbob

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2014, 03:48:27 PM »
You had a rice cooker?
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KD5NRH

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2014, 05:02:06 PM »
You had a rice cooker?

$14 at the local outlet store, and the only way I'd ever get rice cooked right with her around.  She tried to cook even white rice al dente.

ETA: and as I recall, my mom gave us that one.  I didn't get it in the divorce, of course, so I had to wait for the outlet store to get them in stock again.  Darned handy for two-step pasta cooking (dump it in and drain it after the cooker shuts off) and steaming veggies, too.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 06:27:39 PM by KD5NRH »

Boomhauer

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2014, 09:34:51 PM »
One of the things I find most telling is the difference in perception between men[0] and women.
For me, and for most men, poor is when we have to let one of the necessities go (or turn to others for help with it) for a while in order to maintain the others.  Not enough money in the paycheck for both the rent and the electric bill, [1] for example.  Sometimes we re-define necessities as our jobs and other factors dictate, (For example, I wouldn't last long in my job without a cell phone, nor would I be able to keep up with my ex's ever-changing schedule so I can see my kids.) but we tend to understand that the basic essentials are ~2000 calories a day, clean clothes,[2] a warm dry place to sleep and a shower.  If those are available, and we know we can continue to provide them for some minimum time into the future, we're doing OK.  Throw in the ability to get to work in a comfortable manner, some variety in the diet, and a few low-cost leisure activities, and we don't really feel poor.

Women, OTOH, seem to have cable/DSS, decorative items, junk food and various other things not essential to life on the "necessities" list.  I can see basic cosmetics as a job requirement, particularly with an office job, and (still assuming an office job here) their clothing will tend to be more expensive, both to purchase and to maintain.  OTOH, and using my ex wife as an example, she wanted to get cable when we barely had groceries.  We were "poor" because the car was old and ugly, and we only had one that worked.  We were "poor" because she had to resort to Goodwill and garage sales to afford an extra week's worth[3] of work clothes.  We were "poor" because we couldn't go out to eat a couple times a week.  We were "poor" because we were using two-year-old smartphones  We had a roof over our heads.  We had electricity and running water.  We had plenty of calories each day.  We had cell phones.  To hear her tell it, though, we were worse off than anyone in any third world country.

I see it a lot with the singles scene now, too; women who protest that they don't insist on a rich guy, just "stability," but when you start pressing them for what that means, it ends up pretty much requiring a near-six-figure salary.  Car newer than 5 years or so, nice house owned outright or on a fairly short mortgage, fairly large amount in savings, enough extra income that she won't have to work, etc.  I don't object to the idea of the man providing the essentials of life, but I do object to the alterations to the list of essentials when it basically turns into "the man's responsibility is to provide everything the woman wants, and the woman's only responsibility is to provide sex when she feels like it."  I'll keep the rent paid and food in the cabinets; if you want toys, you can contribute financially.

  • Real men.  I don't care about metrosexuals' perception of daily lattes and a HuffPo premium account as basic needs.
  • [1] I'm counting electricity as a necessity because most of my week-to-week groceries are refrigerated or frozen.  The loss of what's currently in my freezer would be at least as much as last month's electric bill.  While I have a gas stove, and could at least cook what I can eat in the time it takes to start spoiling, others would also be dependent on electricity to cook, so it would be a total loss barring a friend willing to lend a stove in trade for some of the food.  I do have at least enough shelf-storable food to get through a pay period, but a lot of it also requires cooking. (Beans, rice, etc.)
    [2] A job requirement, among plenty of other reasons.
    [3] Apparently it was too obvious if she just rearranged the same outfits each week.
Holy *expletive deleted*ck this!

I have dated numerous girls who were amiss not to have the latest whiz bang gizmo that was sweeping society.

One of the ex-GFs was making about 20k a year, doing unskilled secretarial/office work. She had a two year old Jetta that she had brought from Carmax with an outrageous interest rate (because her credit was *expletive deleted*it) and she was paying over $500 a month on this POS (former rental car with numerous issues)...all because she "deserved a nice car". She had a perfectly good PAID OFF Hyundai at home. She also had to have satellite TV and a smartphone...yet she was always complaining about not having two nickles to rub together three days after payday...



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KD5NRH

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2014, 11:14:26 AM »
One of the ex-GFs was making about 20k a year, doing unskilled secretarial/office work. She had a two year old Jetta that she had brought from Carmax with an outrageous interest rate (because her credit was *expletive deleted* it) and she was paying over $500 a month on this POS (former rental car with numerous issues)...all because she "deserved a nice car". She had a perfectly good PAID OFF Hyundai at home. She also had to have satellite TV and a smartphone...yet she was always complaining about not having two nickles to rub together three days after payday...

The number of women I've met who are either spending more than they can afford on a very recent model car, or replacing an older one every time the oil change light comes on, is annoying.  I can understand not being mechanically inclined enough to want to repair it in the driveway every weekend, but it's still cheaper to find a reputable mechanic (or offer me a home cooked meal and a good massage afterward) and get repairs on anything short of a bent frame, blown engine or failing automatic transmission.

Tallpine

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2014, 11:30:02 AM »
The number of women I've met who are either spending more than they can afford on a very recent model car, or replacing an older one every time the oil change light comes on, is annoying.  I can understand not being mechanically inclined enough to want to repair it in the driveway every weekend, but it's still cheaper to find a reputable mechanic (or offer me a home cooked meal and a good massage afterward) and get repairs on anything short of a bent frame, blown engine or failing automatic transmission.

Just needs to be a really good massage  =)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Neemi

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2014, 11:31:04 AM »
The number of women I've met who are either spending more than they can afford on a very recent model car, or replacing an older one every time the oil change light comes on, is annoying.  I can understand not being mechanically inclined enough to want to repair it in the driveway every weekend, but it's still cheaper to find a reputable mechanic (or offer me a home cooked meal and a good massage afterward) and get repairs on anything short of a bent frame, blown engine or failing automatic transmission.

My girl friends who have done this were advised to do so by their dads. :facepalm:

I have to agree that there are a lot of money-dumb people out there - I think that the women are more visible than the guys because they buy visible things - clothes, getting nails done, fancy cars or gadgets, etc. The money-dumb guys I know are both supporting their money-dumb gal's habits and trying to "give her the lifestyle she deserves."  [barf]

Some of these guys buy fancy toys for themselves, but not all.

Boomhauer

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Re: Poor in America
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2014, 11:36:05 AM »
Quote
I can understand not being mechanically inclined enough to want to repair it in the driveway every weekend

Hell it's not like an older car breaks down all the time, though. Keep up on the PMs and treat the car right, and yeah you'll have to get some stuff repaired every so often, but for the most part it should be fairly reliable. Beats the HELL out of a huge car payment every month.





Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!