Eric garner verdict

[roo_ster]

I still think the police murdered him (I could be wrong), I'm just conceding the point about the grand jury. 

Of course they killed him.  QUestion: Were I and my neighbors to do the same to some fellow selling individual cigarettes, would we get the same kid-glove treatment from the DA?

http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/199182/

UNLIKE FERGUSON, THIS ONE SEEMED PRETTY CLEAR-CUT TO ME: No Indictment in Videotaped NYPD Chokehold Death. A few observations:

(1) His initial crime: Selling “looseys” — individual cigarettes — in violation of NYC tax law. When you pass a law, however trivial, you are providing an opportunity for police to use lethal force. That’s why I favor fewer laws, not more.

(2) I saw someone on Twitter saying that if you expect a Staten Island grand jury to indict a cop, then you don’t know Staten Island. That may be the case, but it shouldn’t be. If police can’t be accountable for their use of force, then we shouldn’t have police. Fire ‘em all and privatize. We’re not supposed to have titles of nobility in this country.

(3) Listening to NPR on the way back from the UT Studio — I taped a segment on this for The Independents on Fox Business tonight — they kept stressing that it was a WHITE officer who had killed a BLACK MAN. You could pretty much hear the capitals in their voices. They’d never stress race that way in other circumstances. And it’s not clear that excessive force by police is especially a racial problem. In Alabama, we had the shooting of a unarmed white 18-year old by a black cop; in Utah, we had the Dillan Taylor shooting, also unarmed, also not prosecuted. Racializing the issue makes it more divisive and less likely to be addressed.

UPDATE:

    Government is simply a word for the things we decide to do together. Like choke men to death over rules governing the sale of cigarettes.

    — Charles C. W. Cooke (@charlescwcooke) December 3, 2014

[Ron]

If he died from cardiac arrest instead of asphyxiation it does make a difference.

One shows excessive force using a banned technique that led to his death. The other is a more complicated matter. Folks have heart attacks/strokes when in fits of anger or stressful events all the time.

Either way the cops were culpable in his death. Whether it was criminal or not the grand jury said no.

Did they break rules or not follow protocol leading to his death?

If no then how can we hold them responsible?

If yes, then they/he should be prosecuted.

 

[AJ Dual]

Lack of throat damage does not mean that the choke hold didn't cut off his airway. Have you watched the video? The guy was lying under a scrum of cops, one of whom had him in a choke hold, and the guy was saying loudly enough to be clearly picked up by a bystander's cell phone camera, "I can't breathe, I can't breathe, I can't breathe ..."

The cops didn't let up for an instant. They kept squeezing the life out of him until he went limp -- then they started pushing the bystanders farther away.

I don't know if they targeted the guy because he was black, but I certainly think they used unnecessary force and didn't safeguard his life while they had him in their control. To me it's just another example of the "You WILL comply with my orders" mentality that's too prevalent among cops these days.

If he had enough air to say that, he wasn't being choked.

And as noted, he died of cardiac arrest.

The bigger issue IMO is that he was being harassed over NYC's draconian cigarette taxes, so IMO his case will probably get backed away from by both the right and the left.

[TommyGunn]

If he had enough air to say that, he wasn't being choked.

And as noted, he died of cardiac arrest.

The bigger issue IMO is that he was being harassed over NYC's draconian cigarette taxes, so IMO his case will probably get backed away from by both the right and the left.

I dunno ... he did have asthma.
I don't think he LITERALLY  couldn't breath, but I do think it is possible to be in some sort of respiratory distress and still be able to talk. 
Some people argue he was creating a ruse in order to be let go so he might continue to resist .... I can see why the police involved might have feared this.  Yet the fact he died later ...what do we call that in police work ... a clue?
So ....damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.   
Garner died because .gov HAD to have its share of cigarette tax.   He wasn't a serial murderer, he wasn't a terrorist, he wasn't a madman, he wasn't on The FBI's ten most wanted, just someone who'd been arrested 31 times for selling "loosies."

<cue narrator>"There are eight million stories in the Naked City; this has been one of them."</narrator>

 

[KD5NRH]

If he died from cardiac arrest instead of asphyxiation it does make a difference.

One shows excessive force using a banned technique that led to his death. The other is a more complicated matter. Folks have heart attacks/strokes when in fits of anger or stressful events all the time.

This; I had a 38 year old friend in much better shape than he was (just coming down from obese into merely overweight after having been morbidly obese for about a year) pass away a few months ago.  The ME's best guess about the initial cause based on time of death and position of the body when found was that her alarm clock startled her, triggering cardiac arrest.  Odd, considering she was running 5k three times a week, but sometimes the body overreacts to certain stimuli.

[KD5NRH]

Garner died because .gov HAD to have its share of cigarette tax.   He wasn't a serial murderer, he wasn't a terrorist, he wasn't a madman, he wasn't on The FBI's ten most wanted, just someone who'd been arrested 31 times for selling "loosies."

Particularly ridiculous given that the .gov would have already gotten their pound of flesh when he bought the packs.  Sales tax laws should be modified to restrict taxing to once per item, not every resale.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Best piece on legalities I've seen
http://m.nationalreview.com/article/393933/staten-island-decision-andrew-c-mccarthy


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[Scout26]

Perhaps some of our resident legal types can chime in, but once the police used the illegal chokehold*, they are responsible for anything and everything that happened to Mr. Garner.



*-It's illegal because it causes great bodily harm or death.  There are other methods to gain the "cooperation" of an un-willing suspect.

[wmenorr67]

Perhaps some of our resident legal types can chime in, but once the police used the illegal chokehold*, they are responsible for anything and everything that happened to Mr. Garner.



*-It's illegal because it causes great bodily harm or death.  There are other methods to gain the "cooperation" of an un-willing suspect.

It is illegal because the NYPD says it is against their policy/procedure.  When utilized correctly it is very effective in getting someone to stop resisting.

[HankB]

Saw this video on TV a couple of times . . . without access to all the testimony I can't definitively say what happened . . . but the video looks bad for the cops.

Very bad.

And I'm reminded that it was in NYC that several plain clothes NYPD officers unloaded 41 rounds on an unarmed black man holding his wallet, killing him . . . and they walked. (Though the city paid off the next of kin to the tune of  $3,000,000.)

[wmenorr67]

Saw this video on TV a couple of times . . . without access to all the testimony I can't definitively say what happened . . . but the video looks bad for the cops.

Very bad.

Well at least for the one doing the "choking."  IMHO there was no need for him to jump on the guys back and try to choke him out.  If 3 or 4 officers, at least what I remember seeing, can't subdue a guy, for selling cigarettes, maybe the NYPD needs to rethink how they train their officers.

[Angel Eyes]

And I'm reminded that it was in NYC that several plain clothes NYPD officers unloaded 41 rounds on an unarmed black man holding his wallet, killing him . . . and they walked. (Though the city paid off the next of kin to the tune of  $3,000,000.)

Amadou Diallo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Amadou_Diallo



(Apropos of nothing: I keep misreading the thread title as "Epic gamer verdict")

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Banned by boss does not make it illegal . And even that ban had a caveat


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[Scout26]

Best piece on legalities I've seen
http://m.nationalreview.com/article/393933/staten-island-decision-andrew-c-mccarthy


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From the article:

But I also know, as good cops know, that there is a difference between resisting arrest by not cooperating, as Garner was doing in Staten Island, and resisting arrest by violent assaults and threats of harm, as Michael Brown did in Ferguson. Police deserve a very wide berth in responding to the latter, but less of one with the former. I thus cannot in good conscience say there was insufficient probable cause to indict Officer Pantaleo for involuntary manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide.

Emphasis mine.

As I have stated, the chokehold used was banned for a reason.  Once the officer used that, he committed an illegal act (yes, we can quibble over illegal vs banned), in regards to the rights of Mr. Garner and his responsibilities as a police officer.  There are other ways of gaining the cooperation of potential arrestee's without going all RoboCop on them.   And if you do have to go "Hands-On" then you use the approved techniques.

While Officer Pantaleo may not be facing a criminal trial, he is most certainly facing a civil one.  And that one will have a huge payout. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I think they will settle. Going to trial might not serve the garners well


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/27/eric-garner-poll-daniel-pantaleo-quinnipiac_n_5725328.html

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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

You also seem to buy into it being a choke hold. The grand jury did not


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[Scout26]

It's a chokehold.   His arm is across his throat.  What would you call it ??  What do you think it is ??



Here's what my former Platoon Sergeant* posted on his FB wall:  

This was HOMICIDE: pure, clear and simple; this was a HOMICIDE. The choke hold was outlawed for use by the US Army Miliitary Police in 1977. In 2014 the NYPD is still permitted to use it? I demand to see and read the Grand Jury Transcripts, of the entire evidence submitted by the prosecutor to the Grand Jury. Did he, the Prosecutor withhold and not submit as evidence the fact, an Official Finding Of Fact, by the New York Coroner's Office that the cause of death for Eric Garner, was HOMICIDE? The Coroner ruled this man's death a homicide. I completely feel in my heart the prosecutor did not allow that to be presented to the Grand Jury. I also feel that due to his close ties with the Police Department, the prosecutor used the Grand Jury to not indict the officer's involved. It is now time in America when there is a police involved incident where a citizen dies, that a Special Prosecutor, not the DA Prosecutor, but a Special Prosecutor be appointed to investigate the incident. The Senior County Court Judge should make this appointment.

And then this:

That is to me the beauty of America; I want our citizens, all of them, every 320 million of them to second guess our police; daily, constantly, 24/7; I want our police to know they are being scrutinized with a magnifying glass by the citizenry. It does make for better law enforcement; honest law enforcement. Why do you think so many departments/officers have tried to stop people from videoing them; have confiscated their cameras? They want to operate outside and above the laws; the constitution, that's why. To do otherwise is to become a nation of sheep; that is what Germans did under Hitler and his SS Troops. Pray to God that never happens here. And I have for a fact second guessed some soldiers; especially those who would give illegal orders; and I have personally stopped some from doing that; it is a matter of record I have done that. I will always second guess and confront someone when I know they are in the wrong; regardless of who they are or their position.

And finally this:

It is called Interpersonal Communications. Sad to know that our civilian law enforcement officers get virtually no training on it. If you know how to communicate, really communicate, 9 times out of 10 you can through interpersonal communications diffuse a situation to where no physical altercation in needed. And I have for a fact; using interpersonal communications let my very last words be; look, there is one of you; there is six of us; you can be smart and go with us peacefully; or you can be dumb and you are going with us anyway; do you understand what I am telling you. And we do not know the facts the Grand Jury was presented; that is why I positively absolutely believe Grand Jury proceedings should not be conducted in secret. A prosecutor can get an indictment on anyone for anything if he wants, with the bare minimum of evidence presented to the grand jury. I want to see and read every word, every piece of evidence presented to that Grand Jury. NO SECRET DA PROSECUTOR PROCEEDINGS.

*-Active Duty 1969- 1993, Vietnam, Drill Sergeant and instructor at the MP School, Squad Leader, Platoon Sergeant, and First Sergeant in MP Companies before retiring.

P.S.  He must be anti-cop also....

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Er no
http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/GTY_eric_garner2_ml_140722_16x9_992.jpg


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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And from the pic I posted to the same cop holding garner by pushing down the back of the neck to pin his head is 7!seconds. When they fell his arm was under the chin. Hanging on.

Your sgts feeling that the grand jury is cute. But a feeling not factually supported. Cases like this generate lots of people using their feelings as opposed to facts though generally I expect it more when they have ovaries

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I like paragraph 2

Paragraph 3?
Interpersonal communications.... Did that gentleman always play with folks in the military? How nice for him. It may come as a shock to you both that there exists a sub culture that operates at an entirely different level. But it did sound nice.


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[Hawkmoon]

I dunno ... he did have asthma.
I don't think he LITERALLY  couldn't breath, but I do think it is possible to be in some sort of respiratory distress and still be able to talk. 

I don't have asthma, but just having my daughter's toy poodle lie on my chest in bed makes it difficult for me to breathe. This guy had three or four policemen all piled onto him. I have no doubt that he couldn't breathe.

[Hawkmoon]

Best piece on legalities I've seen
http://m.nationalreview.com/article/393933/staten-island-decision-andrew-c-mccarthy

I am not a lawyer but, that aside, the author is incorrect.

But it’s not that simple. Carefully examined, the ME’s homicide finding may have hurt more than helped the argument for indictment. As New York law makes clear, homicide does not necessarily mean murder or some other criminal form of taking human life. A homicide finding simply means that some form of conduct — which could be innocent — caused death to occur.

So far, so good. A homicide is the taking of a human life. It can be justifiable. However, neither asthma nor cardiac arrest result in "homicide." They may result in death -- by natural causes -- but not homicide.

More importantly, many media reports about the ME’s homicide finding assert that it means that the police conduct alone caused Garner’s death. That is apparently not the case. Other reporting indicates that the ME also concluded that Garner’s asthma, heart problems, and obesity were contributing factors. That certainly complicates things.

The fact that there were possibly contributing factors doesn't eliminate the fact that the ME ruled the death a homicide.

[Hawkmoon]

It is illegal because the NYPD says it is against their policy/procedure.  When utilized correctly it is very effective in getting someone to stop resisting breathing.

FIFY

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Legal again in la after a hiatus


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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Done right they work real well my 13 year old put me out about 2 weeks ago. We were showing her mom what I taught her and she held it till I went out. I came to they were both laughing. But it was a carotid choke


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