No wonder our idea of female beauty is distorted!

[Trisha]

I'm just me.  That comfortable reality, drawn without benefit of some conditioned and durable image or stereotype based on a regional demographic, differs from most people in general (that's why I use the concept "normal people" in many posts).  The outside world is fascinating to watch, and no little baffling.

I think the Classical Age of sculpture came pretty close in setting the benchmark for what is truly beautiful in both men, and women.

I shy away from virtual discussion of TS/TG/TV issues on an open forum in general.  I would recommend folks read what they can find from the author Kate Bornstein to get some initial references, and will usually make a sincere effort to respond to emails and pm's if there are any interested.  My mention of my identity was made in the effort to try and destygmatize the diversity with which I openly identify; much the same as another might mention in passing any unequivocal hallmark of their existence, not as a thread hijack.

Anyway: the shell, the facade of contemporary identity (regardless of other social sectors) is the merchandise and malleable property of advertizing.  Indeed, to snag and hold an audience's attention, the uncommon is the necessary bait.  That it is bizarre when viewed out of context and with some objectivity makes sense, and has merit - albeit it lost on so many. . .

[Guest]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to call you out..it just goes along with what I was saying. And I respect you a lot. Philosophically? Eh, what can I say?

So you don't believe it's possible for a feminine mind to be born into a masculine body and vice versey?

No. I don't. We're all sort of somewhere on a continuum. I'd rather men were comfortable with behaving however they naturally tend to, whether that is highly competetive, hard driving, or being less so. Women should also be comfortable behaving however is most natural for them. I don't believe there is a "feminine" way and a "masculine" way, although I do believe we're somewhat divided by gender as to the end of the spectrum (many more women are naturally at one end and many more men at the other.) I think, like I do about most things, 1/2 is nature, 1/2 is nurture.

It's the same reason I get annoyed when people think I want to be a man. I have no desire to be a man or behave in a way that people perceive as being manly. I just want to be allowed to be myself.

I guess, in a situation like Trish's, I wish she'd been able to be herself and keep the body she was born with instead of (what I believe) feeling the need to change the body.

People give way too much credence to shells, I think.

[Guest]

I just realized (eek, epiphany!) that part of the issue may be that I have no social skills which may be part of the reason I disagree with you all.

Or else you're pretty much all wrong about everything.

Or some combination of the two.

Anyway, Trish, I apologize if it seems/seemed this was directed at your personally..I'm not good at seperating abstract from concrete.

[Trisha]

No harm, no foul.  Gianna Israel's text is probably the best single work that addresses the spectrum of gender identity issues for both health care workers and reasonably educated people who would be interested in discovering what the reality is, beyond knee-jerk stereotypes as promoted by the media.  Having met and spent hours with both her and Kate, I vouch for the legitimacy of their character and worth. . .

Barbara, I wonder not infrequently what my life would/could have been were I to have been allowed to live with my body as I was birthed; but intersexed live births were considered a genetic abomination some fifty years ago.  At least I was allowed to live - there is some evidence that some, if not many were "mercifully euthanized" to spare the parents the horrors of "freaks of nature."  In recent years, clinical evidence is growing that strengthens the possibility that karotype 46 is a normal aspect of homo sapiens; and if ever proven indesputibly, could tumble lots of folks' gyros.

I learn quite a lot from observing how normal people compete in intimate competitions of courtship, social status, and so on - and having some patterns from living as transparently as possible as an alpha male for most of my life, I find there is real need to keep from spontaneous expressions of insight at what some in the outside world forward as carefully crafted subtlty and nuance (while likely as not, completely missing others - potentially making myself vulnerable, a good social caution and restraint).

Stylized identity has been a pursuit since there were cave drawings. . .

In the infinite (close enough for me, at least) possibilities within the human genome perhaps there is basis for natural diversity in humanity straight from the drawing board, as it were.  And if that's the case, the folks who design stylized representations will have their work cut out for them!

[doczinn]

the possibility that karotype 46 is a normal aspect of homo sapiens; and if ever proven indesputibly,

Impossible.

Not because I think there's anything wrong with it, but because "normal" is a completely subjective judgement. We can define it narrowly, and exclude a lot of people, or if we wish we can define it so that it includes almost everyone. Neither holds any value, especially if the purpose of said definition is to exclude or include. Rather than worry about "normal" or "abnormal," let's just recognize that there's a lot of natural variation in the genetic makeup of humans, and some of us are farther out on the bell curve in one way or another. This variation, deending on the aspect and magnitude, either is a problem or is not. If not, then does it matter how rare it is? If so, fix it, forget it, and move on with life.

I realize it isn't that simple, since the subjective judgement that something is abnormal causes very real objective problems. Maybe we could avoid the false dichotomy of "normal/abnormal" and focus on "problem/not a problem."

[280plus]

Interesting species, wouldn't you say? 

[Trisha]

Observing the seeming near-desperation folks have to at least echo their appearance to marketed icons (whatever the flavor) at best seems a little sad.  But, it sells product.

I was delighted to read the recent analytical discovery that female ovulation can be most easily determined by her peak attentiveness to her presentation (appealing clothes, attention to grooming, choice of fragrence and so on).  Add that to comparing iconic style-setters when people-watching and it really can be a most enjoyable show!

(doczin: K46 is hermaphrodite - the fix is to leave the infant intact.  For the TS/TG/TV diversity, there may still be value in open existence.  Stealth mode, or transparency by omission simplifies life for many - and is a decision I respect and defend in anyone; what I would gently chide is the "fix it, forget it, and move on with life."  Where then does anyone else, questioning and afraid look to find hope, courage? Just my thoughts.)

(Barbara: In talking with Kathryn about this last night, we both hope that you are approached by a survivor of some harm inflicted by the intolerant - you seem so capable of giving open strength even if you still might have some uncertainties about the emotional journey someone who has gender identity challenges carries.  Answers can come when you help another's life to mend, their heart to heal, and their eyes to calm and find confidence again.  You might never agree with them, but you seem capable of learning beyond stereotypes.  I hope that was expressed the way I perceive it. . .)

280plus:  People are an endless source of wonder!  You (collectively) know such simple, ordinary and basic capabilities and experiences that are forever beyond my understanding!  And the realization of that again will probably make me a little shy to post again for a while - your (collectively again) posts and threads flow without interruption in my absence.

[Perd Hapley]

Why does it seem we've all bought in to the idea that "the media" is in charge of what we think is beautiful?  Like there aren't any beautiful men or women in our real lives?  Like just because Julia Roberts is called "Pretty Woman," that I believe it?  Just because Amanda Peet is in movies, I think she's smokin' hot?  Well, I don't.  And I think a lot of other people make their own minds just like I do. 

[280plus]

And the realization of that again will probably make me a little shy to post again for a while - your (collectively again) posts and threads flow without interruption in my absence

ell, don't saty away too long. We;'ll miss you!

 

[doczinn]

K46 is hermaphrodite - the fix is to leave the infant intact.

I got that from the context. Then if it isn't a prolbem, let it be. If it is, fix it, forget it, and go on. My solution would be to leave everything intact (and secret - it still is stigmatized) until such age as unequivocal gender tendencies begin to emerge, and then make the appropriate alterations.

what I would gently chide is the "fix it, forget it, and move on with life."  Where then does anyone else, questioning and afraid look to find hope, courage?

Why, to themselves, of course, or to their parents in the first years.

[Guest]

Trish, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say..too many big words.

If its that if I met someone who was harmed by believing they were one gender trapped in another gender's shell, I'd change my mind about the process, I disagree. I can understand the feelings someone would have and on an individual basis have no extraordinary issues with them. In the long term, though, I think changing genders works against what I'd like to see, which is the acceptance of people as individuals, not has having to fit into narrowly defined roles.

[Oleg Volk]

From my limited experience, the one TFL guy who got himself turned into a "girl" remained my model and range buddy. He/she is somewhere out West now, still acting butch and making good use of an AK rifle and some other go-bang toys. Very little difference in personality or habits after the surgery.