No wonder our idea of female beauty is distorted!

[CAnnoneer]

Come on , Barbara. You have decided to take yourself out of the rat race, and that is fine. It is good that political and social developments have happened since 19th c. that allow you have that choice and still do well for yourself. But the reality is that most women do not see things your way. They want a man or men. They want attention when they are younger and family when they get older. So, they work hard to attract whom they want.

Men have any complicity about this female trait only to the extent that they have preferences which may or may not be matched well by a particular woman. Furthermore, I will submit that those preferences are far more lax and undemanding than what women expect/require/exact of themselves and one another. So my succinct statement would be that female modeling is more about catering to other women than to men. To convince yourself in that, observe where the models get published - it is all glossy mags like Cosmopolitan, Vogue, People, Vanity Fair (?), that virtually no men buy and read. Probably the closest men get to something like this is stealing their wives' Victoria's Secret catalogue. The reason why that is is because models are hired to promote cosmetics to women, which want those cosmetics as weapons in their rat race. It is ironic, taking into account men hate cosmetics and makeup.

As another example of the above, consider how many men vs how many women have ever said to a woman things like "you are fat and ugly" or in any way have been verbally dismissive of a woman's appeal. My observations have been that such attacks are standard in the psych-warfare arsenal of women, not men. This comes to show that real violence and oppression in this regard is at least nowadays among women and men have virtually nothing to do with it other than being the target of the projected appeal.

Finally, having a female body makes you female, but not automatically feminine, because the former is anatomy/physiology and the latter is largely behavior.

[Guest]

Well, no one will ever confuse me with a Barbie, but I don't scare babies.

As far as behaving femininely, I dunno. I've never been confused with a boy. I do agree to a certain extent about the complete rejection of everything associated with women which I sometimes see (mostly by non-feminist lesbians, to be brutally honest.) I like doing many things that are traditionally women's activities, I just don't limit myself to them.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

So then why do you assume I'm not happy or that I look like or behave like a man? Neither of those are the case.

What I said is that I base my life on what is good for me and my loved ones, not to make people like me, and I choose my clothing based what is comfortable and/or practical. I'm a woman and failing to dye my hair and wear heels doesn't change that. What does change is your perception of me, which quite frankly, is your problem, not mine. I'm not here to make the general population happy. 

Odd how you keep finding male characteristics in all this, when all I see is common sense.

Sigh, nevermind.  I never meant to suggest that you specifically weren't happy, or that you needed to be more girlie, or anything like that.

I see lots of women who appear to believe that "getting what they want" and "being feminine" are mutually exclusive.  You made vague intimations in that direction when you said...

My purpose in life isn't to be sexy. It's to accomplish things, none of which currently involved Revlon products.

...which seems to suggest that "being sexy" and "accomplishing things" cannot coexist.  Maybe I misread you.

In any event, the notion that "being feminine" and "getting what you want" are mutually exclusive is flat out wrong.  There's no reason you can't have both, if that's what you want.  But is that what every woman should want?

Seems sensible to me that we oughta savor as much of our miserably short lives as possible.  We should enjoy every aspect of who we are.  That means being feminine, or masculine, to the best of our abilities.  Too many folks do the exact opposite.  They work hard to not be who they are, as if self-denial will give them fulfillment. 

Femininity isn't a matter of dying hair or wearing impractical clothes.  It's about being a woman through and through, shamelessly, and enjoying every minute of it.  It's about savoring life and wringing every last drop out of it.  Enjoy your own beauty, enjoy your husband or boyfriend, enjoy your family and your children, and all those who you love.  Enjoy all of the really important things in life.  (If this makes me a backwards sexist bigot, then so be it.) 

All of the most attractive women I've ever met have lived their lives this way.  All of the happiest and most fulfilled women I know have lived their lives this way, too.  I don't believe it's a coincidence.  Happiness, self-delight, and beauty are all different aspects of the same whole.

It works the same way for men as well.  The most satisfied and appealing men I've ever known are the same way - they're men, in the fullest sense of the word, and deliberately so.

[Guest]

Youse guys seem not to be able to agree on what femininity is.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I think we agree more than you realize.  For instance, how many of us have said that femininity is a matter of appearance?

[richyoung]

Until the last century, women's only power came from their looks, and their fertility, and maybe their ability to cook.

Cleopatra
Queen Victoria
Queen Elizabeth
Catherine the Great

The first and last reputed to have some looks, but that wasn't the source of their power.  Neither was their fertility or cookin, AFAIK...

[Oleg Volk]

BTW, Barbara has accomplished plenty of feminine things (raising kids, modeling) but also plenty of general human tasks. She's too busy being effective to bother "fighting the patriarchy".

[Guest]

Wow, you came up with 4 right off the top of your head!

And soon someone else will be along to tell me about his grandmother that graduated from college and their neighbor's second cousin who voted in Wyoming in '04 or some such.

It wasn't the standard. Still isn't. Won't stop me from trying to make it so.

As far as appearance, I guess I got it from the borderline ugly comment and the impression that an appropriate attitude was important.

[Guest]

I'm just me.

The good, the bad, the borderline ugly.

[280plus]

Aw cut it out...

 

[Guest]

Heh..I think I'm going to change my sig line to that.

[Oleg Volk]

[Guest]

Yikes!!!

[Nightfall]

Are we taking bets as to why Barb is holding those flowers at gun point?

[richyoung]

The idea that I'm manly or masculine or want to be a man is kind of funny, though. I'm a woman. What I do, by definition, is feminine.

No.  What you do is an example of what one WOMAN has done.  "Feminine", however, is defined as:

1.  Of or relating to women or girls.

(since the terms here are plural, the actions of ONE woman cannot be said to fit)..

2. Characterized by or poseesing qualities generally associated with women

(strike two...)

3. Effeminate; womanish.

(strike 3 - retire the side...)

[richyoung]

Wow, you came up with 4 right off the top of your head!

...you do know entire societies and civilizations have existed based on matriarchal concepts, right?

It wasn't the standard. Still isn't. Won't stop me from trying to make it so.

What do you think you can't do now, except patently silly things like be assigned to combat units, etc?

[Perd Hapley]

He makes a good point.

The idea that I'm manly or masculine or want to be a man is kind of funny, though. I'm a woman. What I do, by definition, is feminine.

No.  What you do is an example of what one WOMAN has done.  "Feminine", however, is defined as:

1.  Of or relating to women or girls.

(since the terms here are plural, the actions of ONE woman cannot be said to fit)..

2. Characterized by or poseesing qualities generally associated with women

(strike two...)

3. Effeminate; womanish.

(strike 3 - retire the side...)

[Perd Hapley]

Again, this is a quality of the female mind, not some patriarchal notion impressed from above. 

I'd argue its what women have had to do to ensure they and their off spring survived for millennia, not necessarily a natural born quality. 

I don't know about that.  Arranged marriages have been pretty common, too.  But if your argument is correct relating to how women catch men, societal pressure is FAR more important in determining whether a man sticks around and takes care of the children.  We guys can always find a better-lookin' gal, no matter how good-lookin' mama is.  Trust me on that one.  Or just ask Jennifer Aniston.

[Perd Hapley]

The idea that I'm manly or masculine or want to be a man is kind of funny, though. I'm a woman. What I do, by definition, is feminine.

No one's saying you're masculine because you do a few manly things (whatever those may be).  All I would ask is that you recognize there is a difference in male and female psychology, which causes most women to behave in a "feminine" way and most men to act in a "masculine" way.  I'm guessing you are a fairly "feminine" woman, just not in all aspects.  For one thing, you get all prickly when you think men are trying to tell you what to do.    As a man, I accept that I often exhibit a loquaciousness that is uncharacteristic of men.  I don't care about that.  I don't think you or anyone else should worry about whether you dress like June Cleaver every day.  On the other hand, I sometimes find myself being "womanish," and try to stop it.  As a man, I have a divinely-appointed role to fill, which sometimes means I am failing if I don't act the part.  But am I trying to force a woman's role on you or anyone else?  No, I just speak the truth about what these roles are.  Take it or leave it.

[Perd Hapley]

Wow, you came up with 4 right off the top of your head!

And soon someone else will be along to tell me about his grandmother that graduated from college and their neighbor's second cousin who voted in Wyoming in '04 or some such.

It wasn't the standard. Still isn't. Won't stop me from trying to make it so.

Stop, you're both right.  There have always been wealthy women (widows, queens) who were able to maintain a certain level of independence or even vote (especially in New Jersey, circa 1800).  Of course, it's easier to become wealthy and independent in the Western World of today.  It's also more common for women to be impregnated and left to fend for themselves.  Not so much freedom there. 

If I am not misled, the modern feminists were vocal proponents of the idea that by using the birth control pill, women could and should engage in "free love."  That has not helped women.  And we all know they support abortion.  The whole attitude that sex can be engaged in without its negative consequences has been VERY bad for women. 

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure I wasn't divinely instructed to pluck my eyebrows.

Most of my responses weren't even addressed to things you said, Fistful, but the fact is, all of us are on a continuum. So most women aren't like me. Whatever. Doesn't mean I'm not a woman. You say you tend to do womanly things, but what you're missing is that they aren't womanly things. They're things and traits that you have. You're a man. They're not womanly traits, they're individual traits.

You know, God made me with both a brain and a uterus and I presume he intended me to be able to use either. He made you with testicles and a heart and I presume you're also free to use either. Stop trying to change what you didn't make.

[280plus]

Wow Oleg, hottest model yet! 

[Perd Hapley]

I knew that picture was going to start trouble.    Incoming Barbara attack.

Typical girl strategem - complain about how she's not pretty until her guy friends reassure her.  Then snidely instruct them to stop slobbering. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Pardon the stupid question...

In that photo of a smiling woman holding a bouquet of flowers hostage, is that Barbara?

[Guest]

Yes.

And I've tried to avoid saying it but:

I hate that picture. I look stoned or something. And I'm holding a revolver.

But I felt a little silly complaining about it after griping in the thread.