Author Topic: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage  (Read 51475 times)

De Selby

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #150 on: June 29, 2015, 11:52:15 PM »
Who decides definitions in law dictionaries?

Common usage of a word for hundreds of years in our language, thousands in the classical languages is a pretty good indicator of what the definition should be of a word.

Courts on 1.

On the second, how is that any different from saying "it should be this way because this is how many people did it?"

Arguing that we should keep discriminating because lots of societies have engaged in a particular kind of discrimination is no argument at all.  Just think of how many cultures have practiced racism - is that a good argument for it?
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De Selby

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #151 on: June 29, 2015, 11:55:13 PM »
Just go "marry" your self then.  :P

First you make the claim that heterosexual only marriage is a strictly Judeo-Christian concept and then refuse to provide any evidence to back your claim.

You are nothing but a god damned troll  :old:

Notice that here you've resorted to name calling rather than simply explaining what the non-religious basis for man-woman only marriage is.

Again, you intimate that it's there (other cultures ban gays! Most even!), yet give nothing beyond that.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Tallpine

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #152 on: June 30, 2015, 12:00:17 AM »
... is that a good argument for it?

Depends on what the meaning of "is" is  :P


Notice that here you've resorted to name calling rather than simply explaining what the non-religious basis for man-woman only marriage is.

Procreation  :facepalm:

Again, you intimate that it's there (other cultures ban gays! Most even!), yet give nothing beyond that.

Who the hell is talking about "banning" gays ???

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De Selby

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #153 on: June 30, 2015, 12:10:12 AM »
Tall pine, how does this Supreme Court decision in any way affect procreation? 

And again, how does the fact that many cultures have discriminated against gays (including prohibiting legal rights to them like marriage) reason to do it in America?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Tallpine

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #154 on: June 30, 2015, 12:14:52 AM »
Tall pine, how does this Supreme Court decision in any way affect procreation? 

Are you fokking stupid, or do you do this *expletive deleted*it deliberately ???

Your question was: "[explain] what the non-religious basis for man-woman only marriage is."

I answered your question.  :facepalm:

Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

De Selby

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #155 on: June 30, 2015, 12:20:02 AM »
Are you fokking stupid, or do you do this *expletive deleted*it deliberately ???

Your question was: "[explain] what the non-religious basis for man-woman only marriage is."

I answered your question.  :facepalm:



No, you didn't answer the question.  Screaming procreation doesn't explain why a same sex couple shouldn't be allowed to marry.

 Does allowing gay marriage reduce procreation?  Or are legal entitlements like shared property, end of life decision making, etc somehow only valuable to people who plan to have children?

At some level you must recognise how irrational this need to disadvantage gays is.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #156 on: June 30, 2015, 12:21:09 AM »
Sorry fistful - you missed the point. 

It was Balog's point, as I recall, and I think you missed it. As he said, you moved the goal posts from "discriminating against gays [sic]" to defining marriage down to every last detail.


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And are now obviouly making the error of moral argument by dictionary. 

A moral argument? Oh, yeah, see I like to make plain that my defense of marriage is free of moral judgments or religious ideas. Which, if you go back through this thread, you'll notice. But thanks for playing. No moral or religious talk is necessary to point out that marriage is heterosexual.


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Buddhists, muslims, and Hindus and various non-Christian societies all tolerated or formally recognised same sex arrangements over the years.  The fact that Christians didn't translate those words as "marriage" into English is a judgment call, which you're now trying to twist into a moral argument because it comes from the dictionary.  Well, it ended up there because of a judgment call in the first place.

No, once again, you find yourself making presumptions about someone's point of view. I'm not talking about marriage as a word found in a dictionary. I'm talking about marriage itself. Also, please note that a society's moral acceptance of homosexuality is not at all the same thing as its having homosexual marriages. Or if your "recognized same sex arrangements" amount to marriages, why not come out and call them marriages? I suspect that, like everyone else whose gone looking, you can't come up with much of anything. And, besides which, you ought to know it's absurd to claim the government has an obligation to recognize same-sex unions, just because Civilization X on Continent Y recognized them in 245 B.C., or what-have-you.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #157 on: June 30, 2015, 12:29:28 AM »
No, you didn't answer the question.  Screaming procreation doesn't explain why a same sex couple shouldn't be allowed to marry.

 Does allowing gay marriage reduce procreation?  Or are legal entitlements like shared property, end of life decision making, etc somehow only valuable to people who plan to have children?

At some level you must recognise how irrational this need to disadvantage gays is.


If this was really about shared property and end-of-life decision-making, we wouldn't be talking about homosexuals at all. You'd be basing your argument on relatives who live together; unmarried people that have close friendships, etc.

But if you were prepared to be so rational, you'd understand why the procreative tendency of heterosexual couples explains the worldwide, cross-cultural, heterosexual tradition of marriage, among people of differing religious beliefs. I suspect you'll never get there.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #158 on: June 30, 2015, 12:56:59 AM »
Just to straighten out the record, for anyone who's been confused by misinformation in this thread, the notion that state marriage laws were discriminating against homosexuals is simply a myth. Homosexuals have been free to marry, just like anyone else. Marriage, after all, means you're getting hitched to someone of the opposite sex. Homosexuals have not been barred from doing that.

Then there is this kooky idea that it is the defenders of the status quo ante that must explain why "gays" are "excluded." Obviously, it is those who wished to change marriage who owed us all an explanation - one they never cared to provide.

But, hey, lies work.
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Balog

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #159 on: June 30, 2015, 01:49:10 AM »
Ok, so what's the argument for restricting them to man-woman couples only?  And how does that impact the nuclear family?

What is the reason that .gov recognizes marriage at all? What is the point?
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Balog

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #160 on: June 30, 2015, 01:53:38 AM »
So why do you care what the .gov defines marriage as?

How many times do I have to answer the same question from you?

Redefining marriage does a few things. It is fed.gov social engineering, it dictates how companies must provide benefits, and it opens a huge door to suppress religious freedom. And before you start the "Who would sue a church" stuff let me answer that: the same kind of people who would troll for a baker who didn't want to work for them to sue.

I'm not sure how you're in favor of any of that.
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Balog

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #161 on: June 30, 2015, 01:55:22 AM »
I don't know, Balog. Do you think they really don't get it, or are they just playing dumb? 


I assume everything shootinstudent posts is disingenuous.
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Balog

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #162 on: June 30, 2015, 01:59:49 AM »
No, you didn't answer the question.  Screaming procreation doesn't explain why a same sex couple shouldn't be allowed to marry.

 Does allowing gay marriage reduce procreation?  Or are legal entitlements like shared property, end of life decision making, etc somehow only valuable to people who plan to have children?

At some level you must recognise how irrational this need to disadvantage gays is.

This part here is a blatant lie. Gay couples can have the exact same shared property and end of life etc etc legal rights as straight people, they just fill out different forms for it.

So, again: what do you think the purpose is behind state rcognition of marriage?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

De Selby

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #163 on: June 30, 2015, 02:20:50 AM »
This part here is a blatant lie. Gay couples can have the exact same shared property and end of life etc etc legal rights as straight people, they just fill out different forms for it.

So, again: what do you think the purpose is behind state rcognition of marriage?

That is completely false balog - to say there's no functional change in legal entitlements from a marriage is preposterous.  It shows how deep the discrimination and ignorance about the issue runs.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Balog

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #164 on: June 30, 2015, 02:40:10 AM »
That is completely false balog - to say there's no functional change in legal entitlements from a marriage is preposterous.  It shows how deep the discrimination and ignorance about the issue runs.

It doesn't force employers to cover gay partners a spouses for benefits purposes. Other than that it's just a different set of paperwork.

And you still won't answer my question.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

mtnbkr

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #165 on: June 30, 2015, 06:55:06 AM »
I assume everything shootinstudent posts is disingenuous.

I know you think you're being witty by calling him out with a name he hasn't used in years, but you're only making the conversation confusing for people who don't know his previous screenname and are probably wondering who the fsck you're talking about.  Also, not sure why you do that anyway since he never denied the name change, nor used it as a mechanism to conceal who he was.  He's not the only one who changed his name here (including others on this board who have changed their names to hide from others in the big scary internet), but he is the only one you seem compelled to call out on subject.  So, why don't you cut it out right flipping now, m'kay? :)

Chris

Perd Hapley

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #166 on: June 30, 2015, 07:21:30 AM »
I know you think you're being witty by calling him out with a name he hasn't used in years, but you're only making the conversation confusing for people who don't know his previous screenname and are probably wondering who the fsck you're talking about.  Also, not sure why you do that anyway since he never denied the name change, nor used it as a mechanism to conceal who he was.  He's not the only one who changed his name here (including others on this board who have changed their names to hide from others in the big scary internet), but he is the only one you seem compelled to call out on subject.  So, why don't you cut it out right flipping now, m'kay? :)

Chris


You seem to be taking this pretty seriously, for just using someone's former screen name.  ???  I don't recall anybody getting lectured for calling me "tactical pantload," or other fun names members have used on one another in the past. Is this something new?
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Tallpine

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #167 on: June 30, 2015, 07:26:32 AM »
No, you didn't answer the question.  Screaming procreation doesn't explain why a same sex couple shouldn't be allowed to marry.

 Does allowing gay marriage reduce procreation?  Or are legal entitlements like shared property, end of life decision making, etc somehow only valuable to people who plan to have children?

At some level you must recognise how irrational this need to disadvantage gays is.

I'm sorry that you feel so disadvantaged.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #168 on: June 30, 2015, 07:35:00 AM »
I'm sorry that you feel so disadvantaged.

Tallpine, you know I love you, right?

Low blow. Very low.
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mtnbkr

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #169 on: June 30, 2015, 08:04:17 AM »
You seem to be taking this pretty seriously, for just using someone's former screen name.  ???  I don't recall anybody getting lectured for calling me "tactical pantload," or other fun names members have used on one another in the past. Is this something new?

Balog's use of DS's previous SN is not "in jest", but an attempt to call him out on something he feels DS is concealing.  It's not a pet name.

People change their names here all the time, frequently for some very legitimate reasons.  Unless they're attempting to conceal who they are, I see no reason we shouldn't abide by their wishes.  DS has been DS for longer than he was SS, but people seem to bring up his former moniker from time to time.  Not sure why other than to prove a point with a particular poster because it doesn't happen with others.

Chris

Perd Hapley

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #170 on: June 30, 2015, 08:13:04 AM »
Balog's use of DS's previous SN is not "in jest", but an attempt to call him out on something he feels DS is concealing.  It's not a pet name.

People change their names here all the time, frequently for some very legitimate reasons.  Unless they're attempting to conceal who they are, I see no reason we shouldn't abide by their wishes.  DS has been DS for longer than he was SS, but people seem to bring up his former moniker from time to time.  Not sure why other than to prove a point with a particular poster because it doesn't happen with others.

Chris



That's still not a convincing reason, but whatever. I'll just call him Bruce.  :P
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Ben

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #171 on: June 30, 2015, 09:18:43 AM »
Mtnbkr is being incredibly lenient here.

Yes, this is a touchy subject, but if you're getting worked up, whichever of the many sides of it you're on, step away from the computer, calm down, and then come back and post without resorting to name calling. And I'm not just referring to former usernames here. Otherwise this thread gets locked.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #172 on: June 30, 2015, 09:29:31 AM »
Uh. De Selby's former username is not an insult. It's a name he, at one time, chose to go by. How did it become the third rail?

Sincerely,

fistful/Scapegoat/Mr. Tactical Pants
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Ben

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #173 on: June 30, 2015, 09:34:18 AM »
Uh. De Selby's former username is not an insult. It's a name he, at one time, chose to go by. How did it become the third rail?

Sincerely,

fistful/Scapegoat/Mr. Tactical Pants

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And I'm not just referring to former usernames here.
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charby

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Re: SCOTUS strikes down ban on gay marriage
« Reply #174 on: June 30, 2015, 09:34:56 AM »
Uh. De Selby's former username is not an insult. It's a name he, at one time, chose to go by. How did it become the third rail?

Sincerely,

fistful/Scapegoat/Mr. Tactical Pants

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