Commuting By Bicycle

[mtnbkr]

Fixed gear info: http://sheldonbrown.com/fixed.html
Singlespeed info: http://sheldonbrown.com/singlespeed.html

Seriously, go and read all of Sheldon's site and you'll be up to speed with just about any bike related topic we discuss.

Chris

[Jamisjockey]

What is a fixie?  Is that like the single-speed dirt-bikes I had when I was a kid? 


Thanks for the PM, Chris. 

A "Fixie" has no freewheel.  You go, the pedals and drivetrain go.  Only one gear front and rear.  Then there is a singlespeed.  One gear, front and rear, but has a freewheel.  Both are IIRC referred to as a 1x1
Cheap bikes are often referred to by thier tire size, IE a 24", etc.  But decent bikes are referred to by frame size and then tire size (or bike type).  Real geeks will call an 18 speed bike a 9 speed double.  

My evil little spawn is sleeping, so I'm taking 20 minute spells on the trainer watching "inside man".  I haven't ridden in a month  

[mtnbkr]

Real geeks will call an 18 speed bike a 9 speed double.  

Unless it's a 6spd triple.

Chris

[Cosmoline]

I just got an email back on my dream Swedish army bike (the yellow one).  Shipping here alone is over $600    There's no mystery why we're behind the bike times up here in AK.  Maybe I'll have it shipped to Oregon so I can pick it up my next trip down and ride it back up here 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

$600 to ship a bike across the ocean?!

I had Mercian, a British framemaker, quote me a shipping price to send one of their frames to me here in Indiana.  It was on the order of $50 or $75, nowhere near $600.  Granted the Swedish Army thing is a bit heavier and therefore a bit more expensive.  But still, $600 seems all out of proportion,

[mtnbkr]

Dunno HTG, getting a bike shipped across the US is frequently quoted in the $50-$100 range.  Either way, with the purchase price and shipping, it looks like I'll never get a real Swedish army bike.  For that kind of money, I can get any number of US builders to build almost the exact same thing and have cash left over.  I still like those ANT bikes in one of the earlier links.  I'll take a Boston Roadster please.

Chris

[Cosmoline]

It's already in Florida.  That's the pricetag for getting it shipped here to Alaska.  I had a line on a dozen vintage Finnish army bikes, but couldn't come up with the funds to get them here.  Unfortunately these days 90% of bike imports come to the us from Taiwan and other asian nations.  The flow from Europe has stopped, I suppose because they cost more to make there.  But one result is our bikes tend to suck. 

[Harold Tuttle]

http://www.vorb.org.nz/article-46316.html

[mtnbkr]

The flow from Europe has stopped, I suppose because they cost more to make there.  But one result is our bikes tend to suck.

Three strikes and you're out!

Euro bikes are still available.  They do not tend to cost more.  Our bikes don't suck by any stretch of the imagination.  American designed/built bikes are quite popular overseas.  What's not available are the bikes you want.  Unfortunately, there's no market for them or Trek would be falling over itself to produce and sell them.  It's that dang free market at work again.  It's a shame because I like utility bikes, but I'm not going to spend a $1000 on one.  It kind of flies in the face of their intended purpose.

Oh, and there are still quite a lot of bikes produced here in the US.  My Klein has a big ol' Made in the US sticker.

Chris

[Cosmoline]

All right, show me where I can get a Dutch or Scandinavian utility bike for a good price here.  They're damned expensive, if you can find them at all.

By "our bikes" I don't mean the tiny handful actually made in the US such as Rivendell's or your Klein (how much did that cost you, BTW?), I mean the ones made in Taiwan or mostly made in Taiwan that make up the bulk of what's sold here.  The bikes I want--simple sturdy utility cruisers--are by far the most popular bikes on the planet.  Everywhere but here.  They shouldn't cost $1,, but they do. 

What amazes me is you say I'm wrong and claim this:

Euro bikes are still available.  They do not tend to cost more. 

THEN a few words later you say this:

I like utility bikes, but I'm not going to spend a $1000 on one

SO WHICH IS IT?  I just showed you the special importer of Dutch and Scandinavian bikes, and you can see what they cost.  So where can you get them for cheap?  Where are these inexpensive European utility bikes?  Find me a source for them under $400 in the US and I'll do a happy dance with boots on my head.  I've been looking for years. 

For that kind of money, I can get any number of US builders to build almost the exact same thing and have cash left over.

Can you?  Who?  I talked to the Rivendell guy for half an hour and he said there was no way they could do it for any price.  Those sorts of bikes just aren't made here anymore, because people buy bikes--esp. expensive bikes--for recreation not utility.  I've been banging my head against this wall for some time now, which is why I get so worked up about it. 

Anyway, I live in hope that the Electra Amsterdam will be as well built as my Rat Rod.  Even if I have to upgrade the rack, spokes, hub, and post I'll be a happy camper.  And while the speedy young things break their heads on the stumps with their fancy shoes and spandex, I'll keep on clunking along.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I gotta weigh in with Cosmoline on this one. 

There are only a few types of bikes available here.  One is the cheap Wally world bike-like imitation, which isn't worth the $40 they want you to spend on it.  Another is the recreational weekender bike, usually a hybrid built to be comfortable for older, less physically fit folks.  The final type is the enthusiast wunderbike, built either for extreme road racers or hardcore mountain bikers. 

None of these types are suitable as a practical, utilitarian, useful bike.

A utility bike should be simple and affordable - no carbon fiber, no $500 suspensions systems, and nothing overly mechanical.  It should cost less than $500.

A utility bike should have a riding position that falls in between something a hardcore racer would want and what an amateur/weekend rider would want - a compromise between fast and comfortable, functional without being extreme. 

A utility bike needs to be designed for racks and fenders.  This requires more effort than simply brazing on the appropriate mounting points.  A usable rack mount requires the bike's geometry have a longish wheelbase, else your heels will hit your panniers.  Most mountain bikes are built to be compact and maneuverable, which means they don't work so hot with a rack and panniers.  A proper setup for fenders requires the chainstays and fork have enough clearance to accommodate wide fenders and still have room for wide tires.  This eliminates 98% of all road bikes sold today.

A utility bike needs to be built up well enough to last for years of regular use.  Obviously the wally world disposable bikes don't qualify. It needs well-made, reliable, quality components.  Stupidlight road components are no good here.  Some mountain bike components work well, but the current trend in mountain biking seems to be away from the simple and reliable in favor of the unnecessarily complex and expensive.

Look at the way touring bikes are set up.  Solid.  Simple.  Well balanced between comfort and performance.  Racks and fenders are assumed.  But touring bikes, even if you can still find one in a bike shop, start at $1, far too much to spend on a utility bike.

Go into a bike store and ask them is they sell anything like what I've described.  Trust me, they'll look at you like you've got three heads.  If you want something like this, you have to spend a chunk of money and build it up yourself.

[Cosmoline]

Go into a bike store and ask them is they sell anything like what I've described.  Trust me, they'll look at you like you've got three heads. 

I've been there, man have I been there.  I'm afraid that's why poor Chris has been getting my rough side in all this. 

[mtnbkr]

When I said Euro bikes weren't that expensive, I'm talking about the bikes people want, mountain bikes, road bikes, etc.   A brit company, On-One, imports a decent mountain bike frame, similar to Surly's 1x1, for $400ish.  That's cheap in the mountain bike world. That's the point I'm trying to make.  The bike YOU want, while worthy, isn't popular among the bike buying public here because we don't use bikes like Europeans do.  Our communities and mindsets are different (something folks like to point out when talking about things like gun laws, etc).  Here in NoVa/DC, a Utility bike might be workable because we have a decent network of paved bike paths, but it wouldn't work where I used to live in Roanoke because there aren't any bike paths and there's a lot of highway between commerce centers, neighborhoods, etc.  BTW, ruminate on that next time someone mentions using taxes to build bike lanes, paths, etc.  The infrastructure needs to come first.

The reason the Scandinavian bikes you mention are so expensive is most likely due to the lack of demand and cost to import just a few.  Put together an order for a few thousand and I bet the price would fall.

As for current selection, Trek has a whole line of "City/Urban" bikes.  I was just in REI yesterday.  They have several models that fit the description you give of a simple bike designed for racks, fenders, etc.  Pricewise, they're just over your $500 limit, but not by a whole lot. 

Or, you could go custom.  Curtlo, Spicer, and Waltworks build truly custom frames for reasonable prices.  While their bread and butter is mountain biking, they build frames to the geometry YOU specify.  It shouldn't be difficult for them to build your bike.  Prices for all three run $600-$900 for a completely custom frame.  Gunnar makes a nice looking touring frame for $925, but I don't know much about it (though their mountain bike frame is a great bike, I ride with a guy that owns one). http://www.gunnarbikes.com/rocktour.php

While it doesn't help you any, shopping in a city like Washington DC, where there's a strong biking community and the infrastructure to support "utility biking", is your best bet for finding what you want.  If your local community doesn't have folks using bikes as tools rather than toys, then they're not going to stock what you want or even know how to help you.  That's probably the difference in our viewpoint here.  I can walk into any shop and find the equipment I need (REI has a huge selection of racks, bags, fenders, etc) for that sort of riding, but I probably couldn't in Roanoke, for example.

BTW, my Klein cost $800 when I bought it in 1998. 

Chris

[mtnbkr]

Had a thought...

If I were going to build a utility bike from parts, here's what I would build and why:

Frame: Surly Long Haul Trucker.  Price is low at about $400 and it has the geometry and braze-ons for utility work.  http://www.surlybikes.com/longhaul.html  I'd toss the fork and get a rigid mountain bike fork with a disk brake mount.  Disk brakes have proven themselves to me in both power and maintenance requirements. 

Wheelset: Get someone to build a wheelset using the hubs of your choice as if it were going to be on a tandem.  Tandems carry two folks and sometimes gear, so the wheels have to be tough.  If you're going to use a front disk, make sure the front hub is disc compatible.  Use rims designed for downhill racing (that's the toughest environment for wheels).  The rear has to be rim brake compatible, the front can be that or disk specific.

Brakes: V-brake rear and disk front.  Rear brake doesn't matter much (any v-brake will lock the rear wheel even on pavement), but for the front disk, I'd go Avid BB5 ($39 online) and the largest rotor you can justify. I find 160mm just fine for mountain biking, but a 200mm would stop that much better without being much more expensive.  Don't bother with hydraulic disk brakes.  They "feel" better, but are harder to maintain and you can't just go into any shop and get a new brake line or brake lever, but any shop will carry a brake lever and cable compatible with the BB5 (it's a mechanical brake, btw). 

Controls/drivetrain: Any cheap V-brake lever, any cheap shifter that works with your drivetrain.  I'd go 1x9 with a 32t front ring and an 11-34 rear cogset (I've climbed 2000ft trails with a 32x32 low, a 32x34 is even better).  I'd get the longest cranks my legs could comfortably use (longer cranks = more torque).  I currently ride a 180mm crankset, but if you have less than a 32" inseam, go 175mm.  I'd use whatever's cheaper and available among gripshift, shimano's trigger shifter, or even a thumbshifter (Shimano Barcons or Barcons with Paul's Thumbie adaptor).  There's always internally geared hubs, but I know next to nothing about them and am not that comfortable with them.  For bars, I'd use On-One's Mary bar.  I've ridden them and find them very comfortable.  They're a hybrid between a mtb riser and "utility bike" bar. http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=6&MMN_position=5:5

Misc-
Headset: FSA The Pig DH headset.  You won't find a tougher headset for the price ($32 shipped for mine). 
Pedals: whatever works for you.
Bottom Bracket: cheapest sealed unit that works with your cranks.  The only real difference is weight
Tires: something in the 1.5-2" range.  I'd probably use mtb semi-slicks (light tread in center, a bit more on the edges).  I would not use a mtb knobby.  If you ride a LHT big enough for 700c wheels, then I don't know what to suggest due to ignorance about 700c offerings, but go fat as possible.
Tubes: Heavy duty butyl tubes with Slime sealant
Seat: Whatever fits your butt. 
Seatpost: whatever connects the seat to the bike for a good price
Stem: whatever gets the bars in the position you want.

I'd choose the seat, seatpost, and stem based on the riding position I'd want, which would be fairly upright compared even to my mountain bike.  I'd probably set the bars about an inch or three above the seat (they're even on my bike now). 

That's what I would build for "utility".  It's simple, not terribly expensive, and tough.   The components are all well known and proven in the field.  I think the entire bike could be built for about $1k at full retail (the biggest expenses are the wheelset and frame).  It would cost less for me since I have some of the parts on hand already.  Judicious shopping online will drop the price as well.

Just a thought...

Chris

[MillCreek]

I pretty much agree with Cosmoline and have also posted on this very subject over at Bike Forums.  It is just a shame how I cannot go to a reasonable-sized LBS in the Seattle area and find a decent selection of off the shelf utility bikes.  I would not be looking for something like the Trek Portland.  Yes, I could, with sufficient hunting and gathering of parts, build something close to what I want, but nowadays, I have more money than time.  I would prefer to just go and buy off the shelf.

[Jamisjockey]

The problem is it sounds like cosmo subjects his bikes to a little more stress then the average commuter.   Between living in Alaska and riding style, I still insist he needs something like the Pugsley.
 
HTC:
Commuter offerings are on the comeback.  
Cannondale, Trek, Giant, and many more make bikes in the price range you're thinking that more or less meet the requirements you've laid forth.  Also, look into "off" brands like Jamis, Kona and others.  When you go into a bike shop, don't just look at whats on the floor.  Much like a gunshop, they can only display a limited amount of merchandise.  They will display what gets people into the shop and what people will take home with them.  Do some research into the bikes that are offered that you may be able to order.  Having the bike shop size you during this process will help immensely.

I agree, the true utility bike is mostly overlooked in this country.  We only view bikes as either kids toys or recreation/fitness vehicles.  Most don't look at them as viable transportation alternatives.  Cities here are poorly laid out for bicycle travel, and often even dangerous.  Europeans have been using bicycles for transportation since the dawn of the bike age.  They are coming into favor in this country, and its something to remember everytime we go to the polls, communicate with legislators, and choose how to get to the store for that loaf of bread.


http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=22080
http://www.fujibikes.com/2007/lifestyle.asp?subcat=3

Also, all the big mfg's make Police bicycles.  Most are Mountain Bikes with no or front only suspension, racks, and are built for tough use in mind.

[Jamisjockey]

That does it, I now want a LHT. 
I love my Surly Crosscheck, but it's set up for cyclocross. 
In my size, the Long Haul Trucker runs 26" tires.  I'd set it up with sturdy XC style rims.  V brakes, F&R racks, modern mountain bike gearing with the biggest rear cassette I could run, shifters, and brakes.  I'd run less agressive tires on it for mixed use.  There are combo clipless/platform pedals which would give me the versatility to use bike shoes or street shoes.  I'd probably run whats called a trekking bar
http://www.nashbar.com/profile_moreimages.cfm?category=92&subcategory=1049&sku=9756&brand=
I believe I could probably be under $1500 on it built how I want.  After that, I'd like to get a Burley flatbed trailer. 

[Jamisjockey]

Check out this diamond back:
http://www.diamondback.com/items.asp?deptid=20&itemid=228

[Cosmoline]

As for current selection, Trek has a whole line of "City/Urban" bikes.  I was just in REI yesterday

I've seen those, but while a step in the right direction they're not quite on the mark.  Like the Electras, though, their appearance on the market shows that there is a demand for bikes for going to the store not just going down a mountain or racing somewhere.  That Long Haul Trucker looks interesting, as well.  But again there's the cost issue.  The frameset costs $420 without shipping, and the add-ons would run it closer to $700.  But it's an interesting concept, for sure.  Those are excellent steel frames.  I wonder if anyone has a used one on Craigslist.  Thanks for the ideas!

[Jamisjockey]

Cosmoline,
Have you thought about a trailer instead of racks?  Or a seatpost rack and a trailer?
Then you could choose something a little tougher than the commuter bikes yet have more than enough storage and carry capacity.
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=141&subcategory=1239&brand=&sku=18733&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Subcat%3A%20Trailers%20%26%20Accessories
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=112&subcategory=1079&brand=&sku=1665&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Subcat%3A%20Racks

[Jamisjockey]

This is turning into a dead horse, but I've got nothing better to do today
 
I've been surfing around on ebay and am finding all kinds of old school rigid mountain bikes with rack braze ons.  Mostly steel bikes.  A little due dilligence could get someone a great frame to build for around $50-$100, or a complete bike for a couple hundred. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I've built up a Surly Crosscheck to use as a utility bike.  It works gobs better than my old Specialized road bike for everything except racing.  It works somewhat better than my old steel Gary Fisher, which is the single most useful bike I've seen in a bike store in a long time.

I can ride my Surly just about anywhere I want, and I can use it for just about anything a bike can be used for.  Last month I had a long weekend, so I loaded up the Surly and did a 4 day tour.  This afternoon I plan on using it to run my weekly errands.  My favorite exercise/fun riding route is a loop with 10 miles of singletrack, 15 miles of paved road, and 5 miles of gravel road.  My Surly handles all this with aplomb.

The new commuter bikes coming to market are definitely a step in the right direction.  They come closer than anything else we've seen for years, but they still aren't there yet.  They almost always have flat bars, which limit the distance you can ride comfortably without hand/wrist/arm/neck pain.  The Nexus hubs are great for tooling around town on pavement, but they're range of gearing is limiting when you have big hills and heavy loads.  They definitely represent progress, but they aren't all the way there yet.

These bikes came to market over the last year or three, as a response to increased gas prices.  Maybe I should phone my old pal Prez Bush and have him manipulate gas prices back up, to further the development of these bikes. 

[Jamisjockey]

I guess it puts me in a quandry.  I love my 'cross check, but it's hobbled together with mix-and-match parts to make a 'cross racing bike.  The gearing is 50x34 with an 11-23 cassette.  I've thought about buying a dedicated 'cross racer...alum with cf fork, etc, but that would set me back about $1000-$1500.  Then I'd rebuild my crosscheck as the multi-role fighter I'd like to add to my stable...which would set me back another $600-800.  My 'check needs work, as the shifters are a little worn.  I'd like to put a cf fork on it.  However, I don't estimate it needs more than about $500 of stuff to really bring it to a better racing condition. 
After poking around ebay, I found a bunch of older chromo mountain bikes with rack brazes.  Not all had front brazes, but I could probably find a front fork that does.  I could probably build said bike for $600-1, which would be considerably less than a quality build for a Surly LHT. 
This old specialized is my size and has rear braze ons.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Specialized-Mountain-Bike-Red_W0QQitemZ230049379218QQihZ013QQcategoryZ98083QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Harold Tuttle]

one winter the shop i was working for was a tad scarce on the cash for payroll
so i traded my hours against a 1985 filet brazed Jamis Dakar

its my stretched limo touring bike

it has every braze on and a chromed rear stay

[mtnbkr]

This bears repeating until anyone who is even remotely interested in biking as a way of life and not a hobby understands the hurdle that must be overcome in this country.

I agree, the true utility bike is mostly overlooked in this country.  We only view bikes as either kids toys or recreation/fitness vehicles.  Most don't look at them as viable transportation alternatives.  Cities here are poorly laid out for bicycle travel, and often even dangerous.  Europeans have been using bicycles for transportation since the dawn of the bike age.  They are coming into favor in this country, and its something to remember everytime we go to the polls, communicate with legislators, and choose how to get to the store for that loaf of bread.

Cosmo, while I frequently see various Surly frames on ebay, craigslist, and bike related online classifieds go for half or even a third their original purchase price, I have yet to see a good deal on the LHT frame.  That seems to be their sleeper cult classic.  Folks that would be inclined to build a bike on that platform aren't likely to be swayed by another "shiny new bike", so they're not tempted to replace it in a short time.  That doesn't stop me from looking.

Chris