NYPD checking ammo after knifeman’s jacket stops cops’ bullets

[MechAg94]

http://nypost.com/2016/05/19/nypd-checking-ammo-after-knifemans-jacket-stops-cops-bullets/
This looks interesting.

Four of the shots that cops fired at a madman waving a knife in Midtown failed to penetrate his jacket — which was not bullet-proof — and the NYPD will now check the weapons for malfunction, law enforcement sources told The Post.

A sergeant and an officer fired a total of nine rounds at 46-year-old Garry Conrad Wednesday, with one of the shots killing the depressed Broadway stagehand who refused to drop the blade at West 49th Street and Eighth Avenue.

Four of the bullets got lodged in Conrad’s Carhartt jacket, sources said, adding that he was not wearing bulletproof vest.

It was only 9mm.  Given that this is New York, anything is possible. 

[RoadKingLarry]

That Carhartt is some good stuff

[Angel Eyes]

http://nypost.com/2016/05/19/nypd-checking-ammo-after-knifemans-jacket-stops-cops-bullets/

“When we fire our weapons we want to make damn sure that our bullets hit our target – neutralizing our target.”
...
Another shot grazed the wrist of bystander Lauran Code, a 46-year-old lingerie designer from California.

Yeah, you might want to work on that.

[brimic]

Is Carhartt making jackets out of Dyneema now?

[230RN]

 That's why I keep Dutch Loads in my personal defense arm.  I used to change out summer vs. winter loads, HP summer, ball winter.

Then I figured the hell with it, why don't I just Dutch Load it and quit changing loads with the seasons.

Especially since there are ten seasons in Colorado.  Summer, winter, fall, summer, fall, winter, spring, spring, winter, and autumn.

In random order.

My purpose is to stop the threat, not ruin people's jackets.

Terry, 230RN

[Firethorn]

1.  I have to check out carhartt now.
2.  Having lived in Colorado, I agree with 230RN on the seasons.  I've seen 4 in one day.
3.  I'd be careful about 'dutch loading' - it was part of the evidence presented in a murder case up here.  2 cops dead, the killer had loaded FMJ and hollowpoint alternating in his rifle.  It was used as evidence of premeditation.  The jury deliberated for like 4 hours before convicting.

[BobR]

From the looks of the picture he should have had the jacket pulled up over his head. 


bob

[Fly320s]

That is why failure to stop/mozambique drills exist. 

Bullets aren't magical.

[230RN]

Firethorn noted,

2.  Having lived in Colorado, I agree with 230RN on the seasons.  I've seen 4 in one day.

Only 4?  What, were  you sleeping most of the day?  Or in your underground bunker?  I've counted more than that in four or five  hours.

3.  I'd be careful about 'dutch loading' - it was part of the evidence presented in a murder case up here.  2 cops dead, the killer had loaded FMJ and hollowpoint alternating in his rifle.  It was used as evidence of premeditation.  The jury deliberated for like 4 hours before convicting.

I doubt the conviction was based on loading, was probably just prosecutorial emotional window dressing and not needed for the case.  Besides, that was a rifle, and it was not a self-defense situation, IIRC.  For a handgun, you have to choose your ammo carefully, especially in respect to season, and Dutch Loads mitigate that problem.

I used to know someone who loaded those plastic #9 or #12 (whatever) shot shells in his revolver on the theory that his first shot would blind the attacker, then he could take more leisurely aimed shots with bulleted rounds.  

Lost touch with that guy, don't know whatever became of him.

That was pretty bloodthirsty for the time... yet nowadays dual-ammunition .410 bore / .45 Colt revolvers are fairly popular... gee, what do you think those .410 shot rounds might be for?  Some of them have three different kinds of projectiles in one load... washers, buck, and shot.

Anyhow, it would not be hard to find really, genuinely, expert witness(es) to testify that one must use the most effective ballistic means in self-defensive handguns to stop a threat to one's person.  To some, this would mean hollow points, to others, ball ammo.  To others, a mix might be the most effective ballistic means in their personal opinions.

Terry

[Fly320s]

... gee, what do you think those .410 shot rounds might be for?

To sell to the gullible masses.

Anyhow, it would not be hard to find really, genuinely, expert witness(es)...

Massad Ayoob comes to mind, but he doesn't come cheaply.

[230RN]

To sell to the gullible masses.

Or to those who wish to use the most effective defense combination possible.  Like me. However, I never got one on account of their size which was OK for woods-prowling,* but I like my EDC (Every Day Carry) firearms like I like my women... neat and petite.  Besides, didn't S & W jump on that bandwagon-niche, too?  Certainly, they have a market research department.

And I'm not sure but I thought I saw a .45 Colt/.410 derringer advertisement somewhere.  Must have Paul Bunyan recoil.

Terry, 230RN

* I don't prowl the woods any more.

[Firethorn]

Only 4?  What, were  you sleeping most of the day?  Or in your underground bunker?  I've counted more than that in four or five  hours.

above ground bunker, thank you very much.  Stationed at Schriever AFB.  And, given that I spent most of my time there assigned to the night shift...

I doubt the conviction was based on loading, was probably just prosecutorial emotional window dressing and not needed for the case.  Besides, that was a rifle, and it was not a self-defense situation, IIRC.  For a handgun, you have to choose your ammo carefully, especially in respect to season, and Dutch Loads mitigate that problem.

Probably so.  It might tell you that the dude's defense was 'I'm guilty, just not of 1st degree murder.  Second, please".

Anyhow, it would not be hard to find really, genuinely, expert witness(es) to testify that one must use the most effective ballistic means in self-defensive handguns to stop a threat to one's person.  To some, this would mean hollow points, to others, ball ammo.  To others, a mix might be the most effective ballistic means in their personal opinions.

You have a point.

[JN01]

Cerar added that “there could be a defect in the weapon” of some sort, but a “defect in the ammunition” was more likely.

What kind of weapon defect would cause insufficient bullet penetration?  Did doughnut glaze in the barrel slow the bullet down?

[TechMan]

Yeah, you might want to work on that.

How many lbs is a NYPD service pistol's trigger pull?

[Regolith]

How many lbs is a NYPD service pistol's trigger pull?

12, IIRC.

Plus the fact that their recruits are generally from the NYC area, and hence on average aren't exactly experienced shooters to begin with...

[Hawkmoon]

I used to change out summer vs. winter loads, HP summer, ball winter.

I have a friend who does that. I don't understand the logic. If I understand correctly, the "problem" with hollow-point bullets is that the cavity can get plugged up with fibers and not expand. If that happens, how is that any different from shooting the bad buy with a FMJ bullet? What do you gain by loading FMJ in winter?

[Perd Hapley]

Article about bullet-proof jacket says the jacket is not bullet-proof. 

I didn't know it was called "Dutch loading." Idiotic to suggest it could mean premeditation. If anything, it would mean you don't know what kind of target you might be shooting.

[Fly320s]

Or to those who wish to use the most effective defense combination possible.  Like me. However, I never got one on account of their size which was OK for woods-prowling,* but I like my EDC (Every Day Carry) firearms like I like my women... neat and petite.  Besides, didn't S & W jump on that bandwagon-niche, too?  Certainly, they have a market research department.

And I'm not sure but I thought I saw a .45 Colt/.410 derringer advertisement somewhere.  Must have Paul Bunyan recoil.

Terry, 230RN

* I don't prowl the woods any more.

Sounds good, except a .410 shot load out of a short, rifled barrel turns that "most effective defense combination" into "I hope one of these lightweight pellets hits the bad guy and actually penetrates his skin."

Seriously, the .410 shotshell is a horrible load for self defense.  It doesn't do anything well.  If you're primary concern is self-defense, use modern pistol cartridges that are designed, tested, and proven to be effective.

[HankB]

First time I've heard the term "Dutch Load."

Varying ammo loadout for a single repeating gun has a long history in the military - in WWII machine guns often had every 5th round as a tracer, and my Dad told me during the armorers used to assemble an assortment (AP, tracer, incendiary, maybe explosive) of ammo for the P-51s and other aircraft in the group.

In small arms, the idea of using tracers in the bottom of a magazine to let the user know it was time to reload has often been bandied about (whether tracers would be seen at normal self-defense distances is debateable)  and I know of one small-town cop who in the post-WWII era used to carry a .357 loaded so the first four rounds would be LSWC and the last two would be metal piercing, on the theory that after 4 rounds, the bad guy was probably behind cover.

I've often wondered about alternating SP and green tip ammo in a 5.56 rifle . . . so long as they shoot to the same point of impact and are reliable, it would seem to have little downside.

[230RN]

I have a friend who does that. I don't understand the logic. If I understand correctly, the "problem" with hollow-point bullets is that the cavity can get plugged up with fibers and not expand. If that happens, how is that any different from shooting the bad buy with a FMJ bullet? What do you gain by loading FMJ in winter?

Good point and I see your logic, except the operative word is "can."  In summer, that's unlikely-er.  

But if all you have is HPs, and the aggressor is fat or wearing a leather jacket or is just plain ripped with muscle, and all of your HP rounds get clogged up on his tee shirt or are stopped by a rib bone, where are you?

Problem resolved with "Dutch Loads," that is, a mixture of rounds.  Another advantage, as I see it, is the fact that changing ammo around for the seasons involves manipulating the gun, and my humble opinion is that most NDs occur while doing all that there manipulatin'.  My carry guns stay loaded all the time, basically, for that reason.

Ye draws yer cards and ye takes yer chances.

My "hand" and play may be different from yours, though.  Especially if you live in, say Florida, as opposed to North Dakota in winter.  Or Denver any time of year, where it can get pretty cold or warm any old time, or you may want to go glacier climbing in mid-summer and wear a heavy coat.

One variation/exception to all this is, in my case, I purchased a new pocket DAO personal defense semiauto weapon, and I can't afford to thoroughly (i.e., > 200 rounds) test it for reliability with expensive HP defense ammo. So I keep an HP in the chamber, with the remaining rounds in the magazine all ball ammo.

That's my best bet right now, the way I figure it, until someone donates 200 rd of the "best" 9mm HP ammo to me for testing.

Ye draws yer cards and ye takes yer chances. eh?

Terry

ETA:

Article about bullet-proof jacket says the jacket is not bullet-proof.  

I didn't know it was called "Dutch loading." Idiotic to suggest it could mean premeditation. If anything, it would mean you don't know what kind of target you might be shooting.

Bingo.  Evidence of lack of premeditation.  And illustrates my points, above.  The term "Dutch loads" has many variations.

[Boomhauer]

I have a friend who does that. I don't understand the logic. If I understand correctly, the "problem" with hollow-point bullets is that the cavity can get plugged up with fibers and not expand. If that happens, how is that any different from shooting the bad buy with a FMJ bullet? What do you gain by loading FMJ in winter?

If I recall correctly the FBI testing protocol incorporates clothing layers to check for that very issue.

[lupinus]

I'd be interested to know what their standard issue ammo is.


Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.

[AJ Dual]

I'm skeptical as hell.

I could certainly see a failure to expand because of cloth plugging the HP's, and bullets will do funny things like follow around the inside of something like tough cloth or quilted padding at times too. But offhand comments from cops on the scene who counted holes in the body, and holes in the jacket when EMT's and the Coroner's office took it off is hardly empirical.

But honestly, this sounds a LOT like the ".30 Carbine failed to penetrate the heavy coats of Chinese infantry in the Korean War"-conventional wisdom, that was anything but.  When in reality it's "Soldiers firing under stress miss a hell off a lot more than they think they are... and a starving Chicom Grunt is leaving a lot of empty space in his quilted Mao jacket..." .30 Carbine packs the same energy at 100 yards as .357 mag does at the muzzle. It'll go through most anything that isn't cover or body armor.

The only possible reason I could see is if the NYPD officers were carrying some ultra light 90gr 9mm of some sort against regs. But generally speaking, even an NYC cop is going to have a harder time getting some oddball loading he wants than the rest of us in free-America. IIRC, NYPD issues 124gr +p Gold Dots. Which generally speaking is a sound choice.

[Fly320s]

I'd be interested to know what their standard issue ammo is.


Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.

Speer Gold Dot G2 147 grain.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/news/2015/11/02/fbi-going-back-to-9mm-ammunition.aspx

[Hawkmoon]

But if all you have is HPs, and the aggressor is fat or wearing a leather jacket or is just plain ripped with muscle, and all of your HP rounds get clogged up on his tee shirt or are stopped by a rib bone, where are you?

Problem resolved with "Dutch Loads," that is, a mixture of rounds.  Another advantage, as I see it, is the fact that changing ammo around for the seasons involves manipulating the gun, and my humble opinion is that most NDs occur while doing all that there manipulatin'.  My carry guns stay loaded all the time, basically, for that reason.

I still don't see your point. Are you saying that a hollow-point that gets clogged by denim is NOT going to enter the body and behave exactly the same as a FMJ bullet? Everything I've read has indicated that, when JHP bullets fail to expand, they penetrate (or over-penetrate) just like FMJ bullets.

Which is why I don't see any point in either changing ammo seasonally, or "Dutch loading." If you use JHP, the best that can happen is that it will work as intended, and the worst that can happen is that it'll behave like a FMJ. If you're carrying FMJ, the best that can happen is that it'll behave like FMJ, and the worst that can happen is that it'll behave like FMJ.