Batteries - Surefire v. Energizer

[Brad Johnson]

I've drafted my Surefire LX2 for work use. Takes 2CR123 batteries and it appears I'll average 5-6 weeks per set. I let myself get caught without a spare set this weekend and my retailer of choice was closed. Lowes had both Energizer and Surefire varieties in 2-packs but the Energizers were more than twice as 'spensive ($11.95 vs $4.95). I've used nothing but Surefires and had good luck. Is there something sthoooper sthpeshul about the Bunny Brand, or is it a case of "we price them like that because we can"?

FYI - you can get a 12 pack of Surefires on Amazon for $21.

Brad

[AJ Dual]

Nothing special. For all I know they came from the same OEM factory.

The Energizers are priced/packaged for camera users who only buy a pair every few years and think they're "special camera batteries".

The Batterystation ones are US or Japan made by one of the big OEM's and high quality too, and close to $1 each in bulk.

The Titanium Innovations ones from China are just as good in my experience and $1 or less in bulk. The real issue with 123A's isn't runtime, most all are decent, but in a high drain use like a powerful LED flashlight where the batteries are in series, inconsistent QC causing one battery to die or have high impedance, and it has no thermal bi-metal thermal cutoff in the cap to break the circuit, or a faulty one, and the other cell tries to charge the dying one, and BOOM.

[wmenorr67]

I've had good look with the Panasonic brand, of course they are supplied by tax payers....

[bedlamite]

If you are using them regularly, just get rechargeable. I've been using one of the cheap wf-501 lights for years at work, and swap out the 18650 battery about once a week. Here's your solution:

https://www.amazon.com/2000mah-Rechargeable-Battery-Charger-Ultrafire/dp/B00AT7EMY4/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8

[RevDisk]

18650 batteries. Cheap, work well, I'm fond of the the Samsung INR18650-25R.

http://www.rtdvapor.com/samsung-inr18650-25r-2500mah-green/

I've bought from this guy before and somewhere here does work on their systems. Definitely recommend.

[roo_ster]

Not all 123s are made the same.  As with what was stated above, some have more capacity (mah) than others.

18650 batteries. Cheap, work well, I'm fond of the the Samsung INR18650-25R.

http://www.rtdvapor.com/samsung-inr18650-25r-2500mah-green/

I've bought from this guy before and somewhere here does work on their systems. Definitely recommend.

Another option, but be sure to compare mah vs 123s.  The relevant metric (assuming similar build quality--big assumption some times) is mah/dollar at required voltage.

[RevDisk]

Not all 123s are made the same.  As with what was stated above, some have more capacity (mah) than others.

Another option, but be sure to compare mah vs 123s.  The relevant metric (assuming similar build quality--big assumption some times) is mah/dollar at required voltage.

Energizer claims 1500 mAh (x2 obviously being 3000 mAh). The rechargeable Samsungs claim around 2500 mAh, and actually mean it. Like, "within 50 mAh, generally within 25 mAh" accuracy. So figure maybe 1% slippage on average. They guarantee 80% capacity at 250 cycles. More typical is 80% at ~350 cycles.

https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/35187011-green-samsung-18650-25r5-vs-blue-25r2

I go with Samsung for consistency and durability rather than capacity or cost.
LG's are slightly cheaper.
Panasonic typically has more mAh.

Vapors use them, so the price is insanely cheap for the performance regardless of brand. Typical price is $4 ish for normal batteries, $6 for higher capacity or unusual characteristics. Unless you can snag CR123's for under $2 per, the 18650 is cheaper even if you use it once and throw it away. Let alone 250-350 times before it starts to noticably dip. Vapors remind me significant of gun owners because they put a pathological amount of research and statistical analysis in pursuit of extremely narrow gains.

Example: http://www.best18650battery.com/


Also random aside and not directly at anyone in particular (not saying this at rooster as I knew he does this). Generic rechargeables are fine for any temperature controlled low impact environment (TV remotes, flashlights around the house, etc). I'm however very careful with Amazon no-name el generico Chinese batteries that are usually in close proximity to my body. If you keep a flashlight or vaping unit in your pocket, call me a coward, but I'm being VERY picky about the QC and choosing safety/reliability over all else. Amazon has a huge problem with counterfeiting and is barely addressing the issue. I've gotten lucky, but it's very possible to get burned with counterfeit batteries from Amazon. Specialty interwebz stores seem like the best junction for pricing and supply chain security.

http://www.batteryjunction.com/ is another pretty good place I've used for buying batteries. They have really good deals, and always about the lowest cost of non-rechargeable CR123 batteries I trust.

[roo_ster]

batteries that are usually in close proximity to my body

Rev's point regarding having lithium batts up close and personal to your person is worth repeating...and reminds me that I keep my spare/stored 123 & AA lithium batteries in a bitty water tight pelican case.  And I keep my RC model lithium polymer batteries in steel ammo cans.  When I charge my RC lipo batts I do so on a ceramic or metal sheet (with lipo inside a fire-protective bag, leads snaking out to charger) away from anything flammable and keep an eye on things.

Lithium batteries are simply terrific.  They are also stores of beau coup energy that can express itself violently in circumstances you would not expect.  Like inside your pocket next to your junk if you fall into a swimming pool.

[RevDisk]

I currently use this: https://www.amazon.com/Case-Star-Plastic-Waterproof-Organizer/dp/B00QG9KXE2/

I treat it as more water resistant than water proof. It did fine in a short under water test immersion in the sink. No moisture I noticed. Wouldn't dive or swim with it on my person, but good enough for light to moderate rain. I should look into an actually waterproof case for carrying around and a more secure container at home...

I charge them normally (have a two unit charger), but only when I'm home. Good points. Even if overkill, costs nothing to be safer and lithium isn't something to underestimate.

[AJ Dual]

Also. Not all 2x 123A lights are compatible with a single rechargeable LiOn 18650, but most are. More of a fit issue than anything else.

And don't bother with rechargeable rcr123a's they are the suck. Stated capacity is around 800 mAh and really much less, especially in a high drain application like a powerful LED flashlight. Top full charge voltage is actually 4.2v not 3v and can be abusive to the LED driver in your flashlight. The size and number of rolled up layers in a 123a does not work well with LiOn and that's why the capacity is awful, and the fully charged voltage is so high.

18650's OTOH. at least quality name brand ones are miracle batteries. Mainly because they have been the go-to for battery banks in laptops for so long, before flatter cell-phone type Li-poly's started becoming popular, and a ton of industry effort went into perfecting the chemistry, and the construction and manufacturing technique to eek every bit of power out of them and to make them as safe and reliable as possible. And of course, massive economy of scale too.

The battery in a Tesla is essentially a ton of 18650's stacked up in modules into one big cell, with some liquid cooling and high-end charge/discharge controllers.

[RevDisk]

Did not know that about Tesla, AJ, makes absolute sense. When I started using them, I was shocked at the performance for the cost. Did some Googling, Tesla battery apparently used 6800x 3100mAh 3.7V Panasonic 18650's to make a single unit. If you drove it to 0, you'd manage about 500 cycles (I'd say 250-500, probably closer to 350-400 real world). Normal cycling down to 25% raises the number up to 2000-2500 cycles. Doing some more research, Tesla did the same thing I did. Moved over to the new Samsung SDI 18650's. They (Samsung SDI) are including some new secret sauce chemicals (PA77, polymer additive, probably) to increase cycle count. Doesn't perform on the top end as high as some others, but it'll probably have a much higher cycle count and amazing consistency across cells.

Wish I had known all of that from the start, I could have saved a ton of research to just steal's Tesla's results.

As rooster pointed out, it's mAh to dollar ratio that is critical. High cap 3000mAh Samsung INR18650-30Q (purple) has $0.0022/mAh. Standard cap 2500mAh INR18650-25R (green) is a cheaper 0.00198/mAh. Again, cycle count ranging from 250-2500 cycles depending on environments and usage pattern. A 10 pack of Energizer CR123A batteries on Amazon is $20.86 with 1500 mAh. So, 0.00139 per mAh. Not hugely different price than the 25R, but 1 cycle vs 250-2500 cycles. Let's ballmark and say the INR18650-25R is statistically 200x cheaper than Energizer CR123a batteries if your flashlight is compatible with both and you keep your flashlight for an extended period of time. For one usage, you'd pay $4.172 per 2 CR123a energizers, or $4.95 for a 25R. The CR123a is cheaper until you use 1.186 cycles, however. You expect 8.67-10.4 cycles per year or $36.171 to $43.388 per year. If you threw away your 25R every year, you'd still save $30-$40 per year.


Probably more detailed answer than Brad was expecting...  

[AJ Dual]

And if SHTF logistics with 18650's worry you, there's chargers out there that work with the folding notebook binder style solar panels.

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?229002-FS-Solar-Powered-amp-USB-Chargers-2-panels-added

[Brad Johnson]

A question about 18650s...

Two CR123 batteries make a 6v series. How can the 18650, at 3.6v, be an effective replacment?

Brad

[RevDisk]

A question about 18650s...

Two CR123 batteries make a 6v series. How can the 18650, at 3.6v, be an effective replacment?

Brad

Depends on your flashlight. But most of them are regulated. For a lot of decent mid grade flashlights, I would bet a quarter that you will get max performance with 2 cr123a for X which will quickly die off after X. With 18650, you'll see a gradual slope. 2 cr123a will beat the 18650 until X, then quickly fall off while the 18650 keeps to the gentle downward slope. Depending on your flashlight, I would not be shocked if the 18650 lasts twice as long but at a constant decline in power.

If cost be damned, stick to cr123a, and swap out at that magic X point. Or more realistically, buy 2x 18650 batteries and swap at .5X. Doing so will be cheaper for even moderate term usage and will drive your cycle count into the thousands rather than hundreds.

[RevDisk]

Talked with birdman. Am idiot. Forgot that if you use a buck boost regulator, they'll operate at same voltage. And the 18650 will last longer because more power in battery.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck–boost_converter

So basically, unless it's a flashlight you probably shouldn't keep in your pants, 18650 will operate the same or more likely better.

[Calumus]

Will these work for you?
http://rtdelectronix.com/aw-icr-123-16340-protected/
AW is my brand of choice.

[AJ Dual]

Will these work for you?
http://rtdelectronix.com/aw-icr-123-16340-protected/
AW is my brand of choice.

Mine too, when I pay for them at least. However, I've got dozens of quality 18650's scavenged from laptop battery packs that I test out, and toss the usually only one bad one that ruined the pack, and "free" for dozens of OEM unmarked Sanyo's or Panasonics is hard to beat. I use the AW 18650's in some of my high powered handheld laser pointers. However, I'd still steer clear of them. LiOn RCR123a's still suck. Note the reputable AW marking them at only 750mAh. And the top/full voltage is still 4.2V and in a 2x cell light, 8.4V will be hard on the LED driver's converter, at a minimum, make it heat up more quickly in your hand for protracted use... which won't be very protracted, since they have half the capacity of a disposable 123a.

If I had the application where the shortcomings of RCR123a's were worth it, or required, I'd buy those AW's, because they would definitely be among the "best" of a bad product, but for anything else, I'd just use disposable 123a lithium primaries instead if I couldn't use a 18650.

[zahc]

I also had no luck with RCR123. I actually switched to a AA for my EDC because I got tired of CR123 instafail, and RCR123 suckage. My Zebralight is plenty bright on an Eneloop and I can get batteries anywhere. I think it would take a 14500 lithium and be twice as bright, but after my RCR123 experience I'm sticking to nimh for my rechargeables.

[RevDisk]

Anyone have any recommendations for 18650 friendly economical but still durable flashlights, actually? I have one I was given as a gift. Preferably around $40. Can go higher if justified, but I tend to avoid expensive flashlights unless they're weapon mounted.

[bedlamite]

Anyone have any recommendations for 18650 friendly economical but still durable flashlights, actually?

https://www.amazon.com/POWER-Flashlight-Lumens-Generic-Packaging/dp/B0050DX6VM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8

I've been using one of these at work daily for years. Don't believe the lumen rating, it's closer to 150-200, and 3 mode is the best option. I've had to replace the switch rubber a couple times due to the rubber swelling from oil on my hands, but i picked up a 10 pack of those from dx.com for $2. I've been using LG batteries, and here's the charger I've got:

https://www.amazon.com/NiteCore-i2-V2014-Universal-Intelligent-Batteries-Compatible/dp/B009JMDD9U/ref=pd_lpo_200_lp_t_4?ie=UTF8

[Brad Johnson]

Did some digging and found out my LX2 body likely won't accept 18650s in a charge/discharge-protected variant. That means carrying around an unprotected Li-ion battery, in a high-draw device, in pocket or hand, for several hours every day. Nope, nope, and nope.

I could have the body bored to accept the marginally larger protected-cell packs, but for the cost of machining I can buy many years worth of batteries and not have to worry about the thing grenading in my hand. Think I'll pass this time.

Brad

[RevDisk]

Where were you sourcing unprotected Li-Ion batteries from?

From most dangerous to most safe:
Unprotected Li-Ion - Unless you know what you're doing (drone folks or DIY'ers mostly, even rare there), DO NOT TOUCH. Rare to find outside of DIY/manufacturing or cheapest, nastiest level of China made. If you can buy this from somewhere that isn't screaming "Don't buy this unless you know what you're doing!", don't buy ANYTHING that source.
ICR - LiCoO2 (typical Li-ion) - Protected Li-Ion. High capacity. Most dangerous if things go sideways. In safe environment with well built electronics with safety circuits? Tis fine.
INR - Lithium manganese nickel - reasonably high capacity and a high discharge current, very stable. Doesn't have or need protected versions because chemistry is safer than protected ICR.
IMR - Lithium manganese - If you want to start a nerd fight, say an IMR is pretty much same thing as INR but slightly better. Slightly more cycle counts. Slightly more safer.

It sounds counter intuitive that "unprotected" is much safer than "protected", but producted/unprotected is mostly just important in the Li-ion world.
You can buy protected IMR batteries, but that's niche requirement stuff. For normal usage and circumstances, a protected IMR battery is not substantially safer.


Did some reading, apparently SureFire intentionally engineers their flashlights not to fit 18650 where possible. Ouch. They sell their own line of CR123 batteries and I suspect they don't want more economic alternatives that would substantially reduce that revenue. Sorry man. And from additional reading, rechargeables may be a bad idea as well. Probably more economic to buy a different flashlight unless very low usage. Learned quite a bit from this thread.

[AJ Dual]

Did some reading, apparently SureFire intentionally engineers their flashlights not to fit 18650 where possible. Ouch. They sell their own line of CR123 batteries and I suspect they don't want more economic alternatives that would substantially reduce that revenue. Sorry man. And from additional reading, rechargeables may be a bad idea as well. Probably more economic to buy a different flashlight unless very low usage. Learned quite a bit from this thread.

I'm guessing that where SF's primary markets being LEO/MIL, it's not a worry either since there Uncle Sam be it federal or local is paying for the batteries.

But with cr123a's costing $1 each in modest bulk orders from places like Battery Station or Battery Junction, it's not a huge burden like it used to be.

It's only when people see the $9-10 per 2 pack of cr123a's from Energizer or Duracell in a retail package people freak out.

[AJ Dual]

The thread had me inspired, so I went and grabbed (yet another) laptop battery pack from the trash bin at work.

Originally a Dell 60 Wh pack from a Latitude E6330.



A little judicious prying and snipping with blunt non-conductive instruments...



The loot. 6 18650 batteries. Model LGABC11865. (LG made OEM 18650's, stated capacity 2800mAh)



Testing... Finding the wheat among the chaff.

4 good ones. > 3.6V



2 bad ones. < 2.0V (auto ranging was moving the decimal around on me...)

[Brad Johnson]

There's a flashlight community dedicated to boring out Surefire bodies to fit protected 18650s. I'm not that adventurous. The Surefire branded 123s are supposedly made by Panasonic in their US plant. From what I can find they test just as well, and often better, than the double-the-price Bunny and Copper Top brands. For what it costs to get the flashlight body modded and outfit for protected cells and a smart charger I can buy five years' worth of Surefire branded cells through Amazon. I'll probably lose or destroy the flashlight long before then so the expense of upgrading to 18650s isn't warranted.

Brad