Author Topic: How our civilization can fall  (Read 3056 times)

Preacherman

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How our civilization can fall
« on: December 28, 2006, 06:41:50 AM »
Orson Scott Card has a very interesting and thought-provoking article on this subject.  Worthwhile reading.  See http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-12-03-1.html for the full article - a few excerpts are provided below.

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There's a right way and a wrong way to learn from history.

The wrong way is to make an analogy between some event in the past and our present situation, and then assume that everything will work the same.

For instance: Rome was the hyperpower of the ancient world, and it fell, so we're going to fall, too!

Analogies might make an interesting point or raise an intriguing possibility, but they prove nothing. America is like Rome in some ways, and radically different in others. You can't just ignore the differences and think you've said anything smart.

What's the right way? It's to discover general principles and then see if they work out consistently over time.

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What people overlooked was that everything depended on the Roman Army. The army wasn't carrying the goods, it wasn't even actively protecting the trade. The army was mostly stationed at the border, while the economy boomed in an empire so safe that none of the cities had walls. But the economic system that offered so much prosperity could only last as long as merchants could trust in the safety of the goods they transported, and as long as people could remain in place to do their work instead of having to flee barbarian invaders.

It was a robust system. Ward-Perkins points out that there were lots of crises over the years, from plague to invasions to civil wars, and none of them brought the system down, except for local crashes from which the economy soon recovered.

But it takes time and space to recover -- years, and the presence of nearby robust economies that can help restore the area that was hard hit.

When you have crash after crash in close succession, and the nearby economic centers are also just as beleaguered as you, there is neither time nor space for recovery.

So when the Roman Army got caught up in civil wars ("If that legion can make their general emperor, we can make our general emperor!") so that it was distracted and weakened, the emperors began the horribly self-destructive policy of buying off the bad guys on their borders.

It seemed like a good idea at the time, of course. You give the barbarians a lot of money and they go away. It saves lives.

Except that they run out of the money and now they know how to get more. If you crush the barbarian army in battle, they think twice before coming back. If you pay them for showing up and threatening you, and you don't kill any of them, then coming back and threatening you again will be very popular with the barbarian footsoldiers. You'll see them a lot more.

But money isn't infinite -- the barbarian invaders shrink the tax base as they interfere with trade, both directly ("Let's loot this city so they'll know we're serious!") and indirectly ("The barbarians are coming! Let's leave our city and run away to someplace safe!").

So the emperors took to giving them land. They settled the Alans here, the Ostrogoths there. Of course, the land they settled them on was already occupied, so the Germans came in as overlords -- essentially, they became the new tax collectors, only they kept the taxes for themselves.

Thus the government was now giving away its tax base. Meanwhile, the Germans were lousy governors. They knew about taking taxes -- but their taxation wasn't the usual corrupt system of the Romans, it was much more direct and brutal. In many places it was indistinguishable from looting. They took so much that the people didn't have enough left to allow them to buy quality goods from abroad. So they were removed from the empire-wide trading system.

Also, the Germans did not understand or accept the burden that had been borne by the Roman Army in the areas they now occupied. They did not maintain public safety. Newly impoverished people and other tribes of invaders harassed merchants so that through large swathes of the empire, it simply wasn't profitable to ship things anymore. Either brigands or barbarians would seize your trade goods along the way, or there'd be nobody with money to buy your goods when they reached their destination.

The robust Roman economic system could absorb a little of this, but not a lot, and not for long.

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Here's how it happens: America stupidly and immorally withdraws from the War on Terror, withdrawing prematurely from Iraq and leaving it in chaos. Emboldened, either Muslims unite against the West (unlikely) or collapse in a huge war between Shiites and Sunnis (already beginning). It almost doesn't matter, because in the process the oil will stop flowing.

And when the oil stops flowing, Europe and Japan and Taiwan and Singapore and South Korea all crash economically; Europe then has to face the demands of its West-hating Muslim "minority" without money and without the ruthlessness or will to survive that would allow them to counter the threat. The result is accommodation or surrender to Islam. The numbers don't lie -- it is not just possible, it is likely.

America doesn't crash right away, mind you. But we still have a major depression, because we have nowhere to sell our goods. And depending on what our desperate enemies do, it's a matter of time before we crash as well.

Why? Because we're that Syrian village. Except that what we make is food -- enough to feed half the world.

What we don't make for ourselves anymore is ... everything else. We don't produce steel. We don't make most of our own computer equipment. We have exported our textile industry.

Some of these industries could recover. But they would be producing only for domestic consumption. We'd have nowhere to sell anything except to ourselves. That's when we find out just how much of our new "service" economy is smoke and mirrors, dependent entirely on the surpluses generated by the global system of trade.

And our own oil production cannot meet the demands of transportation and production at current levels. Rationing will cripple us. We will not be able to maintain our huge fleet of trucks. Air travel will becoming shockingly expensive and airlines will fail or consolidate. We won't even be allowed to drive our cars on long trips because gasoline will be rationed.

We will go back to the rails. Only we won't have the money to rebuild and refurbish the railroad system -- it will only be able to limp along.

It will look, even inside the United States, amazingly like the shrinkage that happened at the time of the fall of Rome.

Then, and only then, will America look -- and be -- vulnerable to any kind of intervention from the south. Economies that are still somewhat primitive will recover faster than economies that are absolutely dependent on specialization.

It takes two generations for the dark ages to reach America. But they will come, if we allow this nightmare to begin. Because once you reach the tipping point, there's no turning back, as the Emperor Justinian discovered.

Our global economic system is a brilliant creation, imperfect of course, but powerful and effective in creating more prosperity for more people than ever in the history of the world. It is a creation of America's military and America's benign government of the world -- so benign they pretend we don't govern it.

Our enemies and most of our "allies" and many of our own citizens are working as hard as possible to bring the whole thing crashing down, though that is not at all what they intend.

They just haven't learned the lessons -- the principles -- of how great economic empires are maintained. They only look at the political dogmas du jour and spout their platitudes. People like me are ridiculed for seeing the big picture and learning the lessons of history.

And if we're lucky, and get out of this intact -- i.e., if we go ahead and continue this war, break the power of Iran and Syria, and inflict crushing defeat on radical, expansionist Islamicists (which will require that Europe do the same with their own increasingly revolutionary Muslim populations, either expelling them or crushing their radical, Saudi-funded leadership) -- then I will still be ridiculed, because there will be no evidence that I would have been right.

Well, I'll be happy to be ridiculed for being such a doomsayer, if we are able to avoid collapse. I want to be wrong.
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drewtam

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2006, 09:21:36 AM »
As I have explained in other threads, the case for our total economic dependence on oil is overstated.

We have several strong candidates for crude oil alternatives, between $1.80 - $3.50/gal all of following are economical:
1.) natural gas deposits are in friendly parts of the world (google: GTL)
2.) both the US and China have very large coal reserves (google: CTL)

between $3.50 - $4.50/gal all of following are economical:
3.) large uranium deposits are available in Canada(google: hydrogen production, or Fischer Tropsche)
4.) large thorium deposits are available around the world (see #3)
5.) wheat straw,
6.) solar cells,
7.) wind power are able provide the same energy supplies for a Fischer Tropsche process (synthetic fuels)

All of these suggestions would allow us to run without any change to our current infastructure or engine design. The last five would make our transportation industry carbon neutral. I haven't mentioned the possibility of running on ethanol, biodeisel, hyrdogen, or methane. It would also make us a major 'oil' producing nation. Like I said, our LONG term crude and foreign oil dependence is overstated.

Yes, I am an engineer. Yes, I did the calculations myself for my own research of business possibilities and curiosities.

BUT I do agree about the crushing defeat of our enemies. War is terrible, and the more terrible we make the quicker we can get past all this absurdity we are trudging through.

Drew
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2006, 12:29:19 PM »
Orson Scott Card doesn't get nearly enough credit.  He's one of the most brilliant thinkers in public discourse today, yet because he got his big start writing childrens sci-fi novels nobody takes him seriously.  But there's no denying that he gets it.

drewtam

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2006, 04:33:52 PM »
Orson Scott Card doesn't get nearly enough credit.  He's one of the most brilliant thinkers in public discourse today, yet because he got his big start writing childrens sci-fi novels nobody takes him seriously.  But there's no denying that he gets it.

Except for the fact that I just smashed the basic premise of his argument.

Drew
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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2006, 04:49:08 PM »
Mr. Card naively lumps all the "Muslims" (Arab oil supplying nations, I guess he means) with Iraq. Iraq has a huge source of oil, there is no doubt. But there are other sources in the region friendly to us - namely Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

The "Oil Countries" in the Middle East need somewhere to sell their oil to in order to make money.

MechAg94

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2006, 07:08:09 PM »
Yes, even if Islamists take over, they would still want to sell oil.  They have little other income.  They would make better targets also. 

On Oil, we also have a lot of untapped oil reserves available domestically.  Alaska, Canadian oil sands/shale, lot of unused off shore gas and oil on the east and west coasts.  Hell, there is a lot of oil left in the Gulf and around Florida that is not being developed. 

I like Card in that he recognizes the basics of what happened to Rome and how it might effect us.  As he said, he is a "doomsayer" and often doomsayers are not entirely correct, but often reveal kernels of truth that are important to take note of.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2006, 07:18:27 PM »
Orson Scott Card doesn't get nearly enough credit.  He's one of the most brilliant thinkers in public discourse today, yet because he got his big start writing childrens sci-fi novels nobody takes him seriously.  But there's no denying that he gets it.

Except for the fact that I just smashed the basic premise of his argument.

Drew
If you say so...    rolleyes

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2006, 07:26:11 PM »
Mr. Card naively lumps all the "Muslims" (Arab oil supplying nations, I guess he means) with Iraq. Iraq has a huge source of oil, there is no doubt. But there are other sources in the region friendly to us - namely Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

The "Oil Countries" in the Middle East need somewhere to sell their oil to in order to make money.
Yeah?  Did you actually read the article?

How will Saudi Arabia and Kuwait sell their oil when the jihadist barbarians are running amok, burning the oil fields and bombing the ports and sabotaging the pipelines and raping and murdering anyone they feel like?  It's only been 16 years since the last time some middle eastern madman did just that, and already you've forgotten.

Read the article, folks.  Card is saying that it's the peace and stability imposed by the empire that makes trade and commerce and wealth possible.  Without that peace, it won't matter how much oil (or pottery or olives) you have to sell.  You won't have a market to sell it to.  You wouldn't be able to bring it to market even if you had one.  Orson Scott Card is right!

Without the United States to maintain peace around the world and keep the loonies in the middle east in line, it won't matter how badly the Saudis want to sell their oil.  It won't matter what alternative energy sources we can come up with.  A new dark age resulting from global economic collapse is a very real possibility.

Stand_watie

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2006, 07:56:39 PM »
Oddly enough, I started reading Orson Scott Card after getting repeated questions about my name (which is that of one of his characters). He has become one of my favorite authors. Frequently sci-fi and fantasy authors seem to have a better vision of history than many authors.

I don't know that his posited scenario on the future is correct, but I'd say he's right on the money on his take on the fall of Rome.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2006, 08:30:29 PM »
Arguments over our consumption of oil are tiresome. Why? Because switching to hybrid fuels will only make a dent in our oil consumption.

Look around your house. Just about everything you see that contains plastic came from oil.

Nuclear energy? Bring it on. It's about time the the Jane Fonda's shut up. It's the best resource we have. This isn't the 1970's, and nuclear technology has undergone a quantum leap in safety.

Hybrid cars? Great  for the people who want to buy them. I've been very impressed by the hybrid cars I've driven.

Still, we're going to need oil. We should be drilling in ANWR, drilling off of California, off of Florida, and any other state that has reserves.

"Except that they run out of the money and now they know how to get more. If you crush the barbarian army in battle, they think twice before coming back. If you pay them for showing up and threatening you, and you don't kill any of them, then coming back and threatening you again will be very popular with the barbarian footsoldiers. You'll see them a lot more."

Yep, that's why we should engage in diplomatic talks with Iran and Syria. Sad

"And our own oil production cannot meet the demands of transportation and production at current levels. Rationing will cripple us. We will not be able to maintain our huge fleet of trucks. Air travel will becoming shockingly expensive and airlines will fail or consolidate. We won't even be allowed to drive our cars on long trips because gasoline will be rationed."

If and when we reach that point, we will be at war with the country or countries that have the resources we need. Or, we will ally ourselves with the countries who are already allies to those resource-producing countries.

It was only in the last decade or so that Brazil outpaced us as the largest producer of what everybody in the world needs: food. So far, Brazil and the US have enjoyed friendly relations.

If we can maintain a good relationship with Brazil, we can control the most basic needs of almost every citizen on the planet.

"Without the United States to maintain peace around the world and keep the loonies in the middle east in line, it won't matter how badly the Saudis want to sell their oil.  It won't matter what alternative energy sources we can come up with.  A new dark age is a very real possibility."

Yes, and that's why we're in Iraq. We're not there to depose Saddam Hussein (although he's an entertaining byproduct). We're not there to increase profits for Halliburton.

We are there to try to pacify the last region of the world that threatens us, and to make that region more US-friendly.

It's late and, if I stay up much later, my wife is going to rip me a new posterior.

I'll try tomorrow to find the data to back up my points.

Goodnight, all.






drewtam

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2006, 08:06:00 AM »

If you say so...    rolleyes
What a convincing argument. How about we stay away from Ad Hominems?


How will Saudi Arabia and Kuwait sell their oil when the jihadist barbarians are running amok, burning the oil fields and bombing the ports and sabotaging the pipelines and raping and murdering anyone they feel like?  It's only been 16 years since the last time some middle eastern madman did just that, and already you've forgotten.

Read the article, folks.  Card is saying that it's the peace and stability imposed by the empire that makes trade and commerce and wealth possible.  Without that peace, it won't matter how much oil (or pottery or olives) you have to sell.  You won't have a market to sell it to.  You wouldn't be able to bring it to market even if you had one.  Orson Scott Card is right!

Without the United States to maintain peace around the world and keep the loonies in the middle east in line, it won't matter how badly the Saudis want to sell their oil.  It won't matter what alternative energy sources we can come up with.  A new dark age resulting from global economic collapse is a very real possibility.


1.) I just explained that we dont need a single drop of Middle East oil. That we can synthetically produce enough for all our needs from plastics to transportation to energy.
2.)There are only a few major markets of interest:
China
India
Europe
Japan

and many minor markets
Brazil
Venezuela
South Africa
Eastern Europe
Turkey
Israel
Russia
Oriental Pacfic Rim
Australia

Out of this entire list, there is only one market listed that I would be concerned that the Barbarians will over run, Western Europe. Really think about the rest of the list. None of them are so indoctrinated with pacifism as to allow the kind of behavior Card suggests. That kind of rampage would not be allowed in thier regions of influence, shipping lanes, economic zones, etc. Nobody wants to go over to the MidEast and fight. But none will ALLOW the foolishness in thier backyard either.

3.) We are not the only superpower anymore with a vested interest in containing this destruction. Besides the passive containment explained above in point 2. China and India will grow to be a partner and we will mutually support each other in containing these retards. Especially since this problem will be in thier backyard.

Conclusion: The Middle East, North and middle Africa may go to hell in a hand basket (not much different from now); but it will be contained passively by all the interested parties, and actively by the emerging powers with mutual support by the US. Why containment? Because you cannot convert a person to sanity (you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink). Why is containment acceptable? Because we dont really need in the long term, a single drop of thier oil (and I have the numbers to prove it, its funny how you never asked to see it just assumed I'm wrong)



Drew

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Perd Hapley

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2006, 08:07:48 AM »
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How about we stay away from Ad Hominems?
Not an ad hominem.  Not even close.  Huh?
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K Frame

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2006, 08:25:44 AM »
There's one other kicker, that's rarely played as an important kicker in all of this...

Most of the food in the Middle East comes from the United States and other nations that are allied to the United States, either directly or philosophically.

We can live without middle east oil.

I wonder how well a radicalized middle east can live without US food?
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drewtam

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2006, 08:56:18 AM »
The basic thought when someone says:

" If you say so...  rolleyes "

is that I am speaking without knowledge, or simply put I'm an idiot. Its a personal insult rather than an argument of the idea. Not that I am a logical fallacy expert, but its the one that seemed to fit the best.

Drew
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Moondoggie

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2006, 09:07:30 AM »
During the Roman Empire's successful expansionary phase they did not hesitate to lay waste to anyone who opposed them.  "Lay waste" doesn't even begin to cover what would happen to anyone who really whizzed in their Cheerios.  Rape, pillage, plunder, taking slaves...you really did not want to get on their bad side!  When the Romans got lazy, the opposition no longer feared them as they once did.

BTW, one of the things that really puts a twist in my knickers is when someone refers to "American Imperialism".  The USA has never been an empire.  Imperialism is an economic system that uses force and color of law to impose the will of an economically advanced people on backward/undeveloped nations.  We do it via capitalism, rarely by force (sometimes, but not often).  We pay a (rigged & manipulated) market-controlled price for oil.  The Brits would have never allowed OPEC to exist in the 19th century...they would have siezed the territory that produced the oil and simply taken it.  Then they would have sold refined oil products to the locals at a price determined by London.

Anyway, so many factors are involved in world economics and they are all interconnected.  There is no action without a reaction.  The minute China tries to dump $ they are cutting their own throat as the value all of their $ assets would plummet.  What would be the point of destroying the economic viability of their primary market?  Does killing the goose that lays the golden eggs make any sense?  Triggering a worldwide economic depression benefits almost no one.

I agree that we are headed for a worldwide economic collapse and something akin to the dark ages, but I think it will be more the result of events getting out of hand rather than some sinister plot.



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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2006, 09:38:20 AM »

If you say so...    rolleyes
What a convincing argument. How about we stay away from Ad Hominems?
That wasn't an ad hominem.  At worst, it is nothing more than a flat dismissal of what you said. 

Your original statement, that you smashed the basic premise of Card's article, is flat out absurd.  Your statement relies upon two premises:  first, that you identified Card's basic premise and responded to it, and second, that your response "smashed" that premise.

On that first point, Card's basic premise was that commerce and trade are only possible when there is a strong military presence available to keep the peace.  Without peace and stability it isn't safe to send goods to market, so trade will suffer.  Without trade it isn't possible for anyone to specialize in the production of the goods that give us our incredible standard of living, which we all take for granted today. 

Your original post has absolutely no bearing on this notion that peace enables trade, that without peace there will be no commerce to prop up our standard of living.  Your post merely touches upon some far-fetched alternative energy sources.

On that second point, your post (which doesn't even bear upon Card's basic premise) is largely incorrect.  It does nothing to "smash" the idea that a sudden loss of crude oil from the middle east would be catastrophic.  Of the alternatives listed, CTL is the only one that's ever been used on an industrial scale before.  The rest are largely unproven.  GTL is still a pipe dream.  Fischer Tropsche requires massive energy input as well as a feed stock of hydrocarbons, thus making it impractical for anything except converting one fossil fuel into another at great expense.  Nuclear power is a Good Thing, but it's an electrical power generation thing, not a source of liquid vehicle fuel.  Wind, solar, bio fuel are all impractical as anything more than a supplement to our existing liquid fuel sources.

Sure, over time we could transition to alternative sources of fuel.  From an engineering standpoint, it's technically possible for perhaps CTL to provide our liquid vehicle fuels (reserving all of our coal productions for that purpose) and perhaps use nuclear and wind and solar to pick up the burden for electrical power production. 

The obvious flaw you overlook is that it isn't just technical engineering know-how that we need in order to use an alternative fuel source.  More important than the technical aspect is the infrastructure aspect.  Our economy has spent the last century building up the massive infrastructure needed to make gasoline universally available.  If we were to transition away from gas, a massive new set of infrastructure would have to be built to replace it or convert it over to use for the new fuel.  Infrastructure improvements require capital investment, and lots of it.  Massive capital investment is only possible in the presence ofa strong economy.  Even if we tried to make the transition right now, when times are as goo as they've ever been, and even if we threw our entire national effort into the transition process, I doubt we could accomplish it in less than 5 or 10 years.

If the supply of crude from the middle east drops off slowly, then we could adapt along with it and make the transition to an alternative.  But if the supply is cut off suddenly, then we're screwed.  We can't simply switch over to CTL or whatever on a moments notice.  It isn't like flipping a light switch.

Card is right.  If there's a political upheaval in the middle east that suddenly cuts off the supply of crude, economies will fail.  Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, and probably China will crash immediately.  Europe will struggle to hold on, and will probably fail.  The US will struggle to hang on, and will probably succeed.  Within a year or two, the global GDP will be reduced to half or a third of what it once was.  The struggle to recover under those circumstances will be long and hard.  The struggle to recover under those circumstances while trying to lay out the infrastructure to transition away from crude oil will be monumentally difficult, if not impossible. 

At best it's a worldwide depression that dwarfs the Great Depression.  At worst it's the end of the modern world and the beginning of the next dark age.

MechAg94

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2006, 09:55:17 AM »
Quote
nd I have the numbers to prove it, its funny how you never asked to see it just assumed I'm wrong
If you don't feel the need to bother to post numbers or a link, why should we bother to ask? 

Headless pretty much said what I was going to say and more.
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MechAg94

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2006, 09:57:11 AM »
One other factor, China is currently in the process of building a 500 or 600 ship navy.  It may be that in the near future, China may take up maritime commerce security in their area of the world.  How the US and China interact on that will be something to watch.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

drewtam

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2006, 11:45:13 AM »

Your original statement, that you smashed the basic premise of Card's article, is flat out absurd.  Your statement relies upon two premises:  first, that you identified Card's basic premise and responded to it, and second, that your response "smashed" that premise.

On that first point, Card's basic premise was that commerce and trade are only possible when there is a strong military presence available to keep the peace.  Without peace and stability it isn't safe to send goods to market, so trade will suffer.  Without trade it isn't possible for anyone to specialize in the production of the goods that give us our incredible standard of living, which we all take for granted today. 
That is only half of his premise. The second half that you leave out, is that the barbarians pose enough of a threat to bring a halt to the flow of oil. Another foundational peice of his argument, is that the terrorists will spread from Iraq to neighboring nations and combined with the stoppage of the flow of crude oil, they will collapse the world economy.

My first response shows that this necessary part of his argument is untrue, or at least greatly exaggerated. Hence the rest of his argument falls apart (hence, smashed). Of course, you have pointed out my assumption that the change posed by barbarism will take over 'gradually' (5-10yrs). His article is also written in those terms. For example: his use of the Roman fall, and the precipitating action is the spread of war from Iraq to neighboring nations.

Your original post has absolutely no bearing on this notion that peace enables trade, that without peace there will be no commerce to prop up our standard of living.  Your post merely touches upon some far-fetched alternative energy sources.

On that second point, your post (which doesn't even bear upon Card's basic premise) is largely incorrect.  It does nothing to "smash" the idea that a sudden loss of crude oil from the middle east would be catastrophic.  Of the alternatives listed, CTL is the only one that's ever been used on an industrial scale before.  The rest are largely unproven.  GTL is still a pipe dream.  Fischer Tropsche requires massive energy input as well as a feed stock of hydrocarbons, thus making it impractical for anything except converting one fossil fuel into another at great expense.  Nuclear power is a Good Thing, but it's an electrical power generation thing, not a source of liquid vehicle fuel.  Wind, solar, bio fuel are all impractical as anything more than a supplement to our existing liquid fuel sources.

Sure, over time we could transition to alternative sources of fuel.  From an engineering standpoint, it's technically possible for perhaps CTL to provide our liquid vehicle fuels (reserving all of our coal productions for that purpose) and perhaps use nuclear and wind and solar to pick up the burden for electrical power production. 

The obvious flaw you overlook is that it isn't just technical engineering know-how that we need in order to use an alternative fuel source.  More important than the technical aspect is the infrastructure aspect.  Our economy has spent the last century building up the massive infrastructure needed to make gasoline universally available.  If we were to transition away from gas, a massive new set of infrastructure would have to be built to replace it or convert it over to use for the new fuel.  Infrastructure improvements require capital investment, and lots of it.  Massive capital investment is only possible in the presence ofa strong economy.  Even if we tried to make the transition right now, when times are as goo as they've ever been, and even if we threw our entire national effort into the transition process, I doubt we could accomplish it in less than 5 or 10 years.

If the supply of crude from the middle east drops off slowly, then we could adapt along with it and make the transition to an alternative.  But if the supply is cut off suddenly, then we're screwed.  We can't simply switch over to CTL or whatever on a moments notice.  It isn't like flipping a light switch.

Card is right.  If there's a political upheaval in the middle east that suddenly cuts off the supply of crude, economies will fail.  Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, and probably China will crash immediately.  Europe will struggle to hold on, and will probably fail.  The US will struggle to hang on, and will probably succeed.  Within a year or two, the global GDP will be reduced to half or a third of what it once was.  The struggle to recover under those circumstances will be long and hard.  The struggle to recover under those circumstances while trying to lay out the infrastructure to transition away from crude oil will be monumentally difficult, if not impossible. 

At best it's a worldwide depression that dwarfs the Great Depression.  At worst it's the end of the modern world and the beginning of the next dark age.

Far fetched?
http://www.billingsgazette.com/newdex.php?display=rednews/2005/08/02/build/state/25-coal-fuel.inc
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/HE23Cb06.html
Montana, Wyoming, China - they all want a plant, they see the $$$. And the capital is already being raised.

Pipe dream? (I hope that was a pun)
http://www.sasol.com/sasol_internet/frontend/navigation.jsp?articleTypeID=2&articleId=11200003&navid=4&rootid=4

Like I said before, Card never said anything about a sudden loss of oil. Which I agree would be catastrophic. Rather, he was talking about a regional transition over several years. I also agree that enforceable peace is necessary for economic growth and stability. But, his argument relied on more assumptions than just that one axiom.

Saying that F-T requires a massive amount of energy is misleading. It depends on how you run the system. If you run from coal, you produce both fuel and net electricity producer, same with Natural Gas. If you run from nuclear or solar cell, then the energy required is only slightly more than the splitting of hyrdogen, which has been the fad solution, despite its huge problems.

Second, there would be NO INFASTRUCTURE CHANGE. Gasoline is gasoline, diesel is diesel. Actually, FT produces cleaner and more powerful diesels and gasolines since they are 'neat' fuels (pure) with very high cetane and octane ratings with none of those nasty aromatics, respectively. For diesel, the only additive you need is some biodiesel to increase lubricity back to spec (very important for fuel system longevity). Many other products are produced as well, but they can be cracked or sold to the plastics section, or sold as LP fuel.

Finally, for Card to be right; then the barbarism would have to spread to the more important producer/consumer countries in the world as I listed out in the other post. Like I said, all but western europe will defend themselves quite well against the barbars at the gate. And who knows, maybe the Francs will get a clue, and pull up some old Charles the Hammer courage.

Drew
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2006, 05:56:01 PM »
Sigh...  You're still missing the point.

Political upheaval, of the type Card references, could result in a SUDDEN loss of crude oil from the middle east.  The great exporting economies of the world (Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, Japan, China) depend upon cheap intercontinental shipping, which would evaporate if the crude stops flowing from the middle east.  Those economies would tank.

This sort of upheaval could happen very, very easily.  In fact, it happened as recently as 1991 when Saddam Hussein (R.I.P. grin ) destroyed the oil fields of Kuwait.  The western world had to intervene and put that to a stop, before Saddam tried to make a move on the world's only remaining super-fields in Saudi Arabia.  Card points out that the Pax Americana is critical in maintaining world commerce - this is a prime example of that Pax Americana at work, without which world trade would already have crashed! 

If you don't think another mid-eastern barbarian could come along to threaten the oil fields, then you simply don't get it.  If you don't think a loss in Iraq now would significantly weaken the Pax Americana on which we all depend, then you just don't get it.

Moving on to alternative energy sources...

CTL could work for the United States as a replacement for crude oil.  But only after a massive capital investment into new infrastructure to increase coal production and build the processing plants to liquify the coal.  This requires a HUGE capital investment, and it far from the triviality you make it out to be.

GTL might work for other parts of the world, but not for us.  Relying upon natural gas poses the same problem as relying upon crude oil:  the vast majority of the world's natural gas deposits lie outside the United States and the other major economies.  We would only have access to natural gas if we are able to maintain world peace and thus maintain world trade.  Even if we do maintain world trade, transporting natural gas is difficult and expensive compared to transporting crude.  Yet again we face the problem of building a sufficient infrastructure of processing plants.  GTL as a replacement for crude is a pipe dream.

F-T is the most elegant solution, promising the ability to convert atmospheric CO and CO2 into a liquid vehicle fuel.  But realistically, we're a long way from that point.  We'd need to build CO- and CO2-based F-T plants, which we don't really know how to do yet.  Current F-T applications depend on fossil fuel hydrocarbons as their feedstock rather than atmospheric carbon.  The current application of F-T is simply a means of CTL and GTL conversion, with the same limitations outlined above.

A sudden loss of crude oil from the middle east absolutely could happen.  If it did, it absolutely would cause a worldwide depression which we might not recover from.

K Frame

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2006, 06:00:08 PM »
One other factor, China is currently in the process of building a 500 or 600 ship navy.  It may be that in the near future, China may take up maritime commerce security in their area of the world.  How the US and China interact on that will be something to watch.

Not sure I'd really call China's plans a "navy."

As I understand it, most of those vessels will be frigate sized, or smaller, with many to be essentially missile armed long range craft not much larger than a WW II German S or E boat.
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gunsmith

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2006, 11:50:43 PM »
scary.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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roo_ster

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2006, 07:45:29 PM »
OSC gets the big picture that so many refuse to see in their bondage to their particular ideology.  Without America to keep the peace and conflicts constrained, it will fly all to hades in short order.

He also understands the basic reality that progress is not a foregone conclusion and that no marxist historical forces operate outside the minds of those who have swallowed the marxist view (of history, politics, economics, etc).
Regards,

roo_ster

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CAnnoneer

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2007, 06:24:00 PM »
I agree with the existence of the described dangers. But, I am not that pessimistic in terms of predictions.

Look around you and see just how much energy we waste for no good reason, e.g. in lighting, heating, air-conditioning, and transportation. We can easily cut non-commercial consumption by a factor of four, while increasing energy production in a number of accessible ways that are currently denied for silly reasons.

As far as political upheaval and willingness to fight go, we appear so weak only because the gilrie men and pinkoleftists are in charge in most places. When the situation worsens, they will disappear and/or be completely ignored pretty quickly.

Examples: Chamberlain was replaced with Churchill when it became clear even to the hardcore appeasers that Hitler could not be reasoned with. France was on the brink of transition as well, when their internal minister cracked down on the French intifada more recently and would have gone far further with just a bit more encouragement. The British are already shipping out their Muslims that openly advocate hostile acts towards the West. Even here, Americans reelected GWB instead of Lt Kerry, despite serious misgivings about Iraq already.

Finally, if the governments are not strong enough to deal with problems, history has shown that they usually get replaced, one way or another.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: How our civilization can fall
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2007, 08:17:39 PM »
As far as global trade goes, most of it goes through some pretty serious chokepoints.  Me and 10 folks from this board could conceiveably shut down all traffic through the Straits of Malacca, in one day, for a very long time, should we want to.  Me and a few thousand motivated Jihadis scattered throughout the South Pacific islands could create a situation requiring a one-to-one escort of every serious vessel transitioning from the Indian Ocean to the Pacific or time-consuming and difficult new courses closer to Australia, assuming it can hold.

In a generalized collapse of states and rise of banditry, nothing is coming out of the Persian Gulf or Red Sea without physically placing and maintaining troops on either side of the entrances.

If South Africa goes down, nothing's making it round the Horn.  A collapse of government in N.Africa leaves the Med a pirate's paradise again. 

China and India will have their own internal problems and, giving human nature, will more likely be reaching to grab whatever they can than be selflessly helping to maintain the Pax Americana.  It's a heck of a lot easier for a former totalitarian state to revert than it would be for us.

The ability of the West to respond to a rapid systemic collapse of oceanborne trade and fight the actual ensuing land wars with nation-states and enraged stateless persons will dwarf any of the old WWIII scenarios.
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