Author Topic: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?  (Read 4827 times)

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,017
  • APS Risk Manager
How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« on: January 14, 2007, 09:00:06 AM »
Reading the recent post on building a low-power laptop got me to thinking: just how difficult is it to build your own desktop PC?  I have done some simple things such as adding memory, swapping hard drives, replacing a bad power supply, adding and subtracting cards and the like.  We have a Fry's electronics 35 miles south of me, and I have often wondered if it is cheaper to buy a pre-made desktop as opposed to building your own.  My current desktop box is almost five years old, and I suppose I should replace it with a dual-core running Vista in the next year or so.  The current machine just can't keep up with the required frame rates on Flight Simulator X.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Sindawe

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,938
  • Vashneesht
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2007, 10:00:09 AM »
The actual building of the PC is pretty straight forward.  Plug the pieces together, install the OS and applications and its done.

The hard part is the leg work beforehand.  Determining which chipsets, motherboard, case, hard drives, etc to that meet your needs can take A LOT of research.  Preassembled machines are usually a cheaper way to go since assemblers can buy components in bulk for far cheaper than you can for retail.  One avenue you can investigate is buying a bare bones with the basics (Power supply, MB, etc) and putting in the components like video that you chose. 

More information can be found here for starters: http://www.pcguide.com/buy/req/buying.htm
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

Vodka7

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,067
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2007, 10:14:52 AM »
Really, if you've already done all that, you're 90% of the way to building a PC.  The only things you haven't done are screw a motherboard to the case (usually pretty easy, can be annoying if it comes with risers) and seating a processor and a heatsink (again, easy, especially if you stick to retail processors that already have the thermal paste under a little sticker you just peel off.  Can be intimidating if you go with a white box OEM processor and have to put the paste on yourself if you've never done that before, but just follow the instructions and you'll be fine.)

Building a PC is almost always cheaper than buying a premade one, especially if you want any type of real control over the motherboard (important if you're overclocking or need something weird like AGP on a PCIe board) and your RAM.  The most daunting task for you is going to be to pick out all of the components, especially the motherboard--there are a lot of different options and if you don't keep up on the technology or at least spend a few days exploring it before you decide to start shopping, it'll be hard to narrow down what you want.

One example, your PC right now is five years old, so your harddrives are almost definitely IDE/PATA, where as new motherboards only support SATA drives (different connectors, faster speeds.)  If you buy a PC, they're going to use a cheap motherboard that has at best one IDE channel, which means you can only transfer over two devices--a hard drive, and a CD/DVD-ROM.  Me, I've got three HD's and a DVD-ROM, so if I wanted to transfer over my devices to a new PC, I'd have to make sure I bought a motherboard that had both SATA and two IDE channels.  (Or, sometimes it's cheaper to buy a motherboard with 0/1 IDE channels and just buy a PCI IDE adapter with two channels.  Usually you can find them for around $25.)

Also, your video card is probably AGP, but new motherboards are PCIe, and it's rare and expensive to find a motherboard that has both PCIe slots and an AGP slot.  So you'll either have to buy a more expensive motherboard to keep your existing videocard, or you'll have to buy a cheap videocard to replace your existing one.  (Or, you can buy an even more expensive motherboard with onboard video and not have to get a videocard at all.  I usually only recommend those to people using the computer for media or general use--if you enjoy even the occaisional video game and expect to have the system for a while, a video card is a much better long term solution.)

So, really, as far as the nuts and bolts go, you have way more experience than I had when I built my first PC, and the rest is just putting together a shopping list.  If you have any questions, check out places like Anandtech's PC guides, and I've found a suprisingly useful place for product recommendations is Newegg.com's customer reviews.  Newegg's big with the IT and geek crowd, and you'll get a lot more out of a Newegg review for RAM than you'd ever get on someplace like Amazon.  And feel free to PM me or make a post here for more specific help.

tellner

  • New Member
  • Posts: 8
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2007, 11:37:13 AM »
If there's a Fry's nearby you're set.

You'll probably need....

  • A case - I like Antec. They're not the cheapest, but they are well made, convenient and have good power supplies
  • A power supply - Buy an Antec and don't worry  smiley
  • A motherboard, processor and processor fan- I usually go with their advertised deal. Intel vs. AMD is Wonder Warthog vs. Wonder Warthog (old FFFB reference). Find a motherboard that cansupport SATA Hard Drives and has built in RAID. You really want to be able to do RAID-0 (full mirroring) of the drive that has your OS. Trust me on this  sad
  • Memory - Ask the nice salesperson what sort of memory is compatible with your box. Go with the no-name stuff unless name-brand is on sale for less
  • Video Card - Your motherboard may have onboard video. If it doesn't, there is almost always an Nvidia licensed one on sale for <$100
  • Sound Card - Again, may already be onboard.
  • Monitor - Decent 17" and 19" LCD flat panels are getting cheap. It's hard to go really wrong
  • CD-ROM/DVD-ROM/CDRW/DVDRW - They're all cheap now. Get at least 52X CD/16X DVD. Take two, they're small  laugh Make sure at least one of them can write CDs. Don't worry about HD-DVD or Blu-Ray for now. The whole VHS/Betamax thing hasn't settled out. The smart money is on HD-DVD since the porn industry has adopted that platform. Just like they did with Betamax Sony refuses to let pr0n on their proprietary format. Just like then pr0n drives the consumer electronics market
  • Floppy Drive - not really necessary anymore. If you feel the need, they're dirt cheap
  • Hard Drives - Look for the specials. They will save you metric buttloads of money. These days I'd say go with SATA
  • Networking Card - Most motherboards have onboard Ethernet these days. Otherwise PCI Ethernet cards are dirt cheap
  • OS - If you want to sell your soul to the Devil Fry's will give you a good deal on OEM versions of Micro$oft. Do not be an alpha tester for Vista. If you want to turn to the Light Side of the Force there are some excellent Linux distros out there. I'd recommend one (or OpenBSD if you're adventerous), but Oleg probably doesn't want religious arguments other than 9mm vs. .45ACP  laugh

Putting one together is really pretty straightforward. The instructions that come with the motherboard are pretty straightforward. Screw it in. Attach processor and processor fan. Attach appropriate wires for power, fans, jumpers, etc. Put in any PCI cards. See if the whole thing passes the Smoke Test. Install OS. Pat yourself on the back for your good old American do it yourself skills.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 833
    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/sylvilagus
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2007, 11:49:41 AM »
If you ever played with Legos you have the basic skills to build a PC.

As stated above, the real challenge comes with selecting components that work well together.

www.tomshardware.com is a good place to read about the latest components in real-world testing and evaluation. Tom Pabst does a grueling job of comparison.

www.pricewatch.com shows the best prices if you want to mail-order components. I've had very mixed results with Frys. I have 3 within quick driving distance of me. In my experience, about 30% of the (PC) components I have purchased at Fry's turned out to be defective in some way and had to be returned. That's not to say I don't like shopping there, I'm just particular about exactly what I buy there.

Regards,
Rabbit.
To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.
Albert Einstein

InfidelSerf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2007, 12:41:50 PM »
As the others have stated the actuall assembly is like putting together a small lego model.
However asking if it's cheaper is a flawed question now.

There was a day not long ago that building a PC from scratch was always cheaper.
However in this day with $400 complete systems (that's complete with an OS)
It is not cheaper and will never be.
Even if you buy the cheapest of everything including a motherboard with built in components like video, sound and NIC.
You are going to go over the lowest prebuilt price with the OS (I'm assuming you want to stick with legal copies of Windows)

The only way you might be able to undercut a $400-500 system is if you are going to run Linux or some other GNU licensed OS
Based on the fact that you are even asking about this I'll assume running Linux is not your intention.


The real advantage to building a PC from scratch is the individual selection of components. 
You can get the specific brand sound card, video card and HDDs etc that you want.
However when you do that it's usually because you want the best components, which means it's going to cost more.

That said I highly reccomend building over buying prebuilt.  It's fun, it's educational, and more importantly you will never need "tech support" again.
JMHO


The hour is fast approaching,on which the Honor&Success of this army,and the safety of our bleeding Country depend.Remember~Soldiers,that you are Freemen,fighting for the blessings of Liberty-that slavery will be your portion,and that of your posterity,if you do not acquit yourselves like men.GW8/76

Waitone

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,133
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2007, 02:18:56 PM »
tigerdirect.com has a good how-to section.  Prices are pretty good also.

As soon as I can I will roll my own PC.
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it." - John Lennon

Cromlech

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,402
  • English bloke
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2007, 02:23:57 PM »
I put my own PC together, and it was as easy as pie. As has been mentioned, once you know what parts go with what (Intel or AMD CPU with the right motherboard, for example) the actual assembly is easy.
When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt, run in little circles, wave your arms and shout!

Vodka7

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,067
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2007, 03:09:46 PM »
  • A motherboard, processor and processor fan- I usually go with their advertised deal. Intel vs. AMD is Wonder Warthog vs. Wonder Warthog (old FFFB reference). Find a motherboard that cansupport SATA Hard Drives and has built in RAID. You really want to be able to do RAID-0 (full mirroring) of the drive that has your OS. Trust me on this  sad
RAID 0 is striping, not mirroring, and will not help you at all to recover from hardware trouble.  In fact, if there's a drive malfunction, your life will suddenly get Very Interesting.  RAID 1 is mirroring, and isn't a bad idea given how cheap harddrives are now, but I still wouldn't recommend it.  All it's going to do is a) cost you more money, and b) reinforce bad computing habits.  Back up your data!

tellner

  • New Member
  • Posts: 8
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2007, 06:24:41 PM »
You're right! I had vapor lock of the brain  undecided

But yes, RAID 1 will seem like a waste of a disk. Right up until your main hard drive goes down.

bg

  • New Member
  • Posts: 28
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2007, 08:57:17 PM »
Building one is a lot on fun. Getting parts can be as fun as well. I realize
you have a Fry's close by, but one the best online pc parts places is
www.newegg.com and www.zipzoomfly.com. Hard to beat the new
Intel dual core chips. One may want to look over at hardware reviews
sites like http://forums.anandtech.com/ for reviews on what works best
for what. Also sites like this one, http://forums.pcper.com/ can really
help clear a lot of things up. One thing is for sure a GOOD psu is the
heart. Without enough power one can have the hottest setup going
but it'll be no good if not enough power is supplied. I built the one
I'm using now 4 yrs ago and though it's still an old Socket A mobo
with only a 2500 AMD Athlon chip and a gig of Patriot memory, it
just continues to do it's thing with zero hiccups. It really is a blast
when after all the work it boots up and works. Very satisfying.

I've linked to the above sites with all respect to APS. Thanks, bg

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2007, 11:33:52 PM »
Kind of like building your own rifle from a Mauser action, it's really not cost-effective anymore.

But just like the above analogy, you can build something to your specifications, and know exactly what goes into it as you source the parts and install them.

I used to build PCs for myself, family, friends, and even some businesses.  I don't do it anymore - at least, not from the point of buying a case, power supply, motherboard, processor, memory, video card, etc.

The prices on complete computer systems has just dropped so much I'd rather just upgrade an existing system, or buy a corporate lease turn-in machine and do my tweaking that way.  (As I'm typing this on a dual-Xeon IBM workstation I bought before Christmas for pennies on the dollar...)
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2007, 02:10:38 AM »
Just be glad that you don't have to worry about jumpers anymore.

And if you're putting your own thermal paste on, remember, more is not better.  All it's supposed to do is eliminate the air gap between the processor and the heat sink.  Modern heatsinks and processors have extremely smooth surfaces to begin with.

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,670
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2007, 05:05:46 AM »
There is a lot of satisfaction to be had in rolling your own PC. It won't be cheaper by any means, but it can give one a sense of accomplishment.
Just be sure to do your research as others have said.  I've built quite a few over the years for friends and family, and still enjoy the process.  I'm spec'ing one right now to do video capture and editing that I hope to build in a few months.
While Fry's can be a good source for components (Geek Heaven is what my son and I call it. We shop occaisionally at that one you mentioned in Wilsonville.) I usually buy from Newegg.com.  It is really hard to beat their prices and customer service.
PM me if I can be of assistance.  We are in the same time zone, at least.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

tyme

  • expat
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,056
  • Did you know that dolphins are just gay sharks?
    • TFL Library
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2007, 06:02:16 AM »
Quote from: Gewehr98
Kind of like building your own rifle from a Mauser action, it's really not cost-effective anymore.
I disagree.

With a name-brand computer, you're stuck with one (a few if you're lucky) chassis style, and it's usually terrible.  Hard to open, hard to add components to, poor layout.  I have a 6-year-old Dell Precision case where the floppy has been rendered just about useless because the little button on the front plate that's supposed to hit the eject button on the drive has gotten misaligned and/or bent.  Fishing disks out of the floppy drive now involves taking the faceplate off.

Some OEMs (HP, *cough*) give you neutered windows reinstall cds that won't let you load extra drivers, and the windows serial number you get won't work with a generic windows install cd.

You're often stuck with low-quality components... cheap/slow/loud cdrom drives, cheap/small hard disks, no-name ram.  OEMs cut corners wherever they think they can get away with it.

If you want a new computer for cheap, and you're willing to sell your soul and your sanity to save money, and you never intend to upgrade components other than ram and expansion cards, that's when OEMs make sense.  Otherwise, do yourself a favor and get a real chassis and name-brand ram, a decent-sized disk (pair), a decent motherboard, and a decent dvd burner.  I recommend newegg.com.

Quote from: Vodka7
RAID 1 is mirroring, and isn't a bad idea given how cheap harddrives are now, but I still wouldn't recommend it.  All it's going to do is a) cost you more money, and b) reinforce bad computing habits.  Back up your data!
Backups do not address the same problem.  Backups are not real-time, and if you have to resort to a backup, you've lost between a day and a week's worth of work.  If you use some imaging program (rather than just selectively backing up your data files) and dump the images to another drive, then you might as well be using that drive for raid-1.  Backups are for if your OS becomes unbootable, or if you mistakenly delete files, or someone steals the computer, or if you spill coffee on it.

How on earth does raid-1 reinforce bad computing habits?  Very few people do backups anyway, and those who do are disciplined enough that they won't stop just because they have raid, at least not if they understand the dual purposes of raid and backups.

Yes, two drives are more expensive than one.  You get something for that money.  It's a hedge against having to screw around with backups and/or reinstalling if a single drive fails.

OTOH, most motherboards that support "raid" don't really.  They come with drivers that make windows think the disks are raid.  If the drivers get screwed up, or you can't get them to load when you install windows, you can't use raid.


AMD vs Intel... core 2 duo is somewhat faster than the top Athlon X2s for gaming and some other uses, but I'm sold on AMD's architecture and their roadmap.  Unless you're building a dedicated gaming machine and need every ounce of computing power you can get, I'd recommend AMD.  AMD is also much more power-efficient even than core 2.

One thing to look for on motherboards is an eSATA (external SATA) port.  It's not a huge deal, since you can get an adapter that fits in an expansion slot and converts one of your motherboard's SATA ports to eSATA, but getting a motherboard with an eSATA port will save you the trouble.  If you think you might use an external drive, that is.  Sure, you can use USB2, but they're slower.  Most drives can't keep up with SATA in raw read speed, but they can in short bursts if the data's already in the drive's cache.
Support Range Voting.
End Software Patents

"Four people are dead.  There isn't time to talk to the police."  --Sherlock (BBC)

tellner

  • New Member
  • Posts: 8
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2007, 06:36:49 AM »
I disagree about it not being cost effective. I look at what I can get from Dell for $800 - proprietary hardward, lockins, a lousy case, no expandability, fascist restrictions on configuration. For the same money, less if I cannibalize things like cases, power supplies and media drives from the last computer, I can build a hell of a system. It will take a little extra work and some time doing the whole hunter/gatherer thing, but I haven't paid more than $500 to put together a system in years

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,017
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2007, 06:53:12 AM »
I wonder if any company puts together desktop 'kits' to assemble.  A kit in which they have already done the research as to the components, and all the end user has to do is assemble it.  As an example, they could offer a 'internet' kit, suitable for surfing, a 'gaming' kit suitable for gaming, a 'digital photography' kit, etc. I would not mind getting a decent 'gaming' kit that I could tinker with.  One would hope it would be cheaper than Alienware.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

tyme

  • expat
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,056
  • Did you know that dolphins are just gay sharks?
    • TFL Library
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2007, 07:03:22 AM »
Quote
I wonder if any company puts together desktop 'kits' to assemble.
I don't understand.

You can find plenty of people who list their hardware specs on the web.  You can read hardware reviews, which usually list all the components.  Then you can buy those listed components from online vendors like newegg.

Given the widely varying requirements of consumers, buying specific sets of hardware and trying to sell them as kits would be a losing proposition.  The only way you could convince anyone to buy your kits would be if your margins were paper-thin.

There's a way to build a bunch of product IDs from newegg.com into one url so that it'll add all of them to your basket at once.  With features like that, why would anyone try to be a middleman and deal with shipping turn-around and non-existent margins?  You could make more money starting a blog and offering several different configurations each month, with links to newegg (or some other vendor).


I forgot to mention another gripe I have about OEM computers... the BIOS invariably sucks.  I'm not talking about overclocking settings, either.  Useful configuration options are often missing, because the OEM doesn't want people screwing around and messing up their systems, then calling the tech support line for help.  It's understandable, but it's an unacceptable limitation from my perspective.
Support Range Voting.
End Software Patents

"Four people are dead.  There isn't time to talk to the police."  --Sherlock (BBC)

InfidelSerf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2007, 09:35:41 AM »
Quote
I wonder if any company puts together desktop 'kits' to assemble.
Yes they are generally called "Barebones" kits. 
Basically you just have to add a CPU and memory.  Sometimes other components.


Quote
I used to build PCs for myself, family, friends, and even some businesses.  I don't do it anymore - at least, not from the point of buying a case, power supply, motherboard, processor, memory, video card, etc.
I USED to do this myself, both friends/family and clients.

What ever you do no matter how proud you are of your new found skill, NEVER build a system for anyone else.
The implied 24/7 365 for life tech support will drive you crazy and not be worth it!!
That includes the most valued of family and friends (they can often be worse than a paid client)

For some reason people think that just because you put the thing together that you can be called at any time of the day for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the assembly.
Pretty much 95% of problems people have with computers are software related.  And you can NEVER support software issues as a matter of initial build guarantee.
There are simply too many variables involved.

When I built a system for a customer, I would pick out the parts, put it together and install the OS and all neccessary drivers. 
I would then deliver and set it up and make them sign an agreement.  The agreement would basically say the INSTANT they installed any software I was no longer liable for free tech support.
(I would run all systems through a battery of tests for 24hours prior to delivery as well as printout a complete test result from some hardware testing software I used)
It would never fail, I'd get a call to come out to "repair" the system I built.. didn't matter if it was 2 hours or 2 years ago. They would expect me to just do it for free. 
If I discovered that it was a hardware problem I'd stand behind it. (usually bad RAM)
Most people just don't know how to tell the difference between a software problem and a hardware one.

98% of the time it was due to user error, or poorly written software, or the most common viral and spyware apps...which I consider user error.

Just my 2cents
DON'T BUILD FOR OTHER PEOPLE!!
Pass them off to the majors.
They will get just as frustrated with them, only you won't potencially damage a relationship.

The hour is fast approaching,on which the Honor&Success of this army,and the safety of our bleeding Country depend.Remember~Soldiers,that you are Freemen,fighting for the blessings of Liberty-that slavery will be your portion,and that of your posterity,if you do not acquit yourselves like men.GW8/76

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,118
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2007, 10:16:09 AM »
I've gone both ways - built and bought.  I will probably never build another machine again unless it's out of sheer morbid curiosity.

I got a good earful on aftermarket boards and such from an EE I used to work with.  He was commenting on another tech's choice of motherboard for a system he was building for his kids.  He pointed out things like power conditioning, layout of traces, component mounting, component quality, and the general elegance and quality of the setup.  Suffice it to say that his analysis of most cheapy system boards is that they are living on borrowed time - they are a failure waiting to happen.  Ditto cheap everything else.

Once I assimilated that info into my thinking and started looking at parts based on value instead of just price, I found that what little money I saved buying and building my own system barely paid for my time to assemble it, much less troubleshoot everything and keep it all running reliably.

A semi-custom custom mass-produced machine - Dell, for example - is simply a better option for me.  They use about the same parts that I would (better, in many cases).  They put it together, they install the software, they test it and make everything work, and they take care of any warranty issues.  All I have to do is hop on their web page and pick out what I want.  Often, they will have a machine that meets my needs in their outlet store (anywhere from a 10-30% savings on a similarly equipped new order machine, depending on how long they've had it in stock).

Can you build your own PC?  Yep.  Is it hard?  Nope.  Will it save you money?  Maybe.  Will I ever do it again?  Probably not.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Vodka7

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,067
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2007, 10:44:58 AM »
Quote from: Vodka7
RAID 1 is mirroring, and isn't a bad idea given how cheap harddrives are now, but I still wouldn't recommend it.  All it's going to do is a) cost you more money, and b) reinforce bad computing habits.  Back up your data!
Backups do not address the same problem.  Backups are not real-time, and if you have to resort to a backup, you've lost between a day and a week's worth of work.  If you use some imaging program (rather than just selectively backing up your data files) and dump the images to another drive, then you might as well be using that drive for raid-1.  Backups are for if your OS becomes unbootable, or if you mistakenly delete files, or someone steals the computer, or if you spill coffee on it.

How on earth does raid-1 reinforce bad computing habits?  Very few people do backups anyway, and those who do are disciplined enough that they won't stop just because they have raid, at least not if they understand the dual purposes of raid and backups.

Yes, two drives are more expensive than one.  You get something for that money.  It's a hedge against having to screw around with backups and/or reinstalling if a single drive fails.

OTOH, most motherboards that support "raid" don't really.  They come with drivers that make windows think the disks are raid.  If the drivers get screwed up, or you can't get them to load when you install windows, you can't use raid.

Thanks for the good points.  I was too harsh on RAID 1 in my post, but I still don't believe it's a good solution for most people.  Setting up an array (especially an onboard solution and not with a controller card) without taking the time to really understand what it's doing is the dangerous part.  Since we're here at APS, I'll use this analogy--buying a gun for protection is a great idea.  Buying a gun for protection and not learning the four rules and taking some training is a bad idea.

My problem isn't with RAID 1, it's with the possibility that a new user would think that RAID 1 is going to mean he never has to make backups again.  You made a great list of problems that could occur where a user is really, really going to wish he could just grab something like a DVDR or an external HD and bring it to work or a library to finish something.  My only point is that a user new to RAID 0 may not have those backups.

ilbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,546
    • Bob's blog
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2007, 12:16:17 PM »
It is unlikely you will save any money building your own generic PC. You will be able to configure it exactly as you like, and that might be worth something.

Some people like to do that kind of thing, as a hobby I guess.

I would never waste my time building something that I can buy already built for less.
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2007, 12:27:06 PM »
I still stand by my earlier analogy.

If you're set on building a quality PC with the fastest video card, biggest hard drive, fastest processor(s), most memory, etc. you're not going to save money over the package deals sold by outfits who have an inside track to parts and pieces.  Just like you can build an automobile from individual parts bought over the counter at NAPA, and it won't be as cheap as the complete car off the dealer's lot.  You could try Fry's if there's one local to you, or make use of some online sources.  Sometimes there's a computer show that happens locally, like the one at Cal Expo in Sacramento.  Those are the folks with the connections to discount parts and pieces, but they also deal in bulk.

However, if you are a hardcore gamer bent on running the latest version of Battlefield 2142 at the highest frame rates and resolution, then you're going to go with AlienWare or build your own gaming machine. It won't be cheap, either way.

Myself, I quit the PC building business a while ago when I realized I would never have the same discounts as those little asian dudes at the computer expo, without going the volume route and getting "in" with their sources.  That, and as Veloce851 stated above, I'm not wearing a customer-support pager for family and friends when the PC I made/sold for them doesn't do something at 2 AM. 

I've been quite happy with the Dell and IBM workstations I've bought through  corporate lease turn-in channels.  I don't play computer games much, but do a lot of media, and audio mixing/dubbing from my guitars, keyboard, and drum machine, laying down several tracks and mixing them down to 2 channels.  My new/old workstations are great for that, and I'm particularly pleased with my SCSI and EIDE RAID mirrored setups.  I still offload really important files to other machines and my secure webserver, but the RAID has been convenient and a nice insurance policy for all the machines in this household.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

tyme

  • expat
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,056
  • Did you know that dolphins are just gay sharks?
    • TFL Library
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2007, 12:58:45 PM »
Quote
If you're set on building a quality PC with the fastest video card, biggest hard drive, fastest processor(s), most memory, etc. you're not going to save money over the package deals sold by outfits who have an inside track to parts and pieces.
I still disagree.  High-end systems are where it makes more sense to build your own.

You can look at the price differentials at alienware and see that you're getting screwed.  A dvd+-rw drive is $40 more than the plain dvd drive.  That means it's $50+ by itself.  WTF?  I can get a dvd+-rw drive from newegg for $30.  Western digital's 10krpm raptor sata drive is $250 _more_ than a 250GB 7200rpm SATA drive (which itself has to be $50+)... so that's $300 for the raptor from alienware.  It's $200 at newegg, after a $30 rebate.

And there's a price cushion built into alienware's beginning price, as well.

That stuff adds up.  Build an entire system and you come out hundreds ahead, even with a nice case and power supply.

Even if the prices were closer, my time isn't so valuable that I couldn't spare an hour to assemble a computer, making sure that I get a decent case, power supply, and other components.  No matter how cool a vendor's pre-built system is, there's always some component that's poorly selected.
Support Range Voting.
End Software Patents

"Four people are dead.  There isn't time to talk to the police."  --Sherlock (BBC)

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: How difficult is it to build a desktop PC?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2007, 01:20:31 PM »
Quote
I still disagree.  High-end systems are where it makes more sense to build your own.
Quote
However, if you are a hardcore gamer bent on running the latest version of Battlefield 2142 at the highest frame rates and resolution, then you're going to go with AlienWare or build your own gaming machine. It won't be cheap, either way.

Agreed.

Look - for  cheap systems I recommend going with a known good quality manufacturer*.  Dell's pretty good right now.  Gateway's really gone downhill.  Going online can usually save you money.  These are the systems I recommend to non-techies who don't have a lot of budget and aren't going to stress their machines even if they had a early pentium.  People such as my grandparents.  Though I recommend getting a good screen, as that can last through multiple computers.

Power Gamer with money burning a hole in his pocket - Alienware, Falcon, companies like that.  You can actually buy a factory overclocked system that's been burn tested for stability.  Water-cooling, the works.  Expect to be able to reach $5k real quick though.  I wouldn't forget that at least alienware ships with a special stripped down version of windows with all the unnessesary stuff stripped out/turned off, no 'crapware'** and tuned for maximum performance.

Home built, I might not be able to reach the $5k performance mark, but I'll be able to reach the $2.5k performance mark with about $1.5k worth of parts.

Though I'll note that we once received a 3215 requesting a bunch of alienware computers.  The excuse was that once you factored in the superior tech support for the alienware computers that they were cheaper than the dells...

Quote
And there's a price cushion built into alienware's beginning price, as well.

Really?  I thought it was a 16" mattress with pillowtop personally.  Wink

*And keep checking, the big names known for quality sometimes go cheap and the cheap sometimes become quality.
** It's a technical term.  Found it in a printed computer magazine even.