Author Topic: This one looks bad  (Read 34604 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2018, 10:17:40 AM »
I have not read, nor seen anything about this other then the top and bottom of the hour radio newz about what happened and numbers.


I'm going to guess he was on Psychotropic meds.

I'm guessing he wasn't. He was adopted, and both adoptive parents died. He was living with a friend's family, but I'm sure they had no control over him other than possibly some basic rules about behavior in the house. Even if he had been prescribed meds, I doubt he would have been taking them.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2018, 11:23:58 AM »
Just after Sandy Hook, the grammar schools in the town next to mine made a big deal about installing a new security system. The system they installed was exactly the system that failed at Sandy Hook.  :facepalm:

Just like the gun control laws that get enacted after things like Sandy Hook. Other states just pass laws identical to the ones that haven't stopped anything in the past, and won't in the future. And they complain that our thoughts and prayers are feckless...
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 03:09:40 PM by fistful »
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T.O.M.

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2018, 11:33:04 AM »
To address a couple of questions:

First, the issue of local run schools vs. state run schools vs. (unbelievable) fed run schools is being debated all the time.  Got a friend on a local school board.  He tells me all the time that there are people pushing to eliminate local school boards in favor of a state run system with local politically appointed administrators to run local districts.  Like everything else, it's a money and power thing, and the debate is for another day, and should involve copious amounts of alcohol.

Second, on school security, it is another money thing.  Who is going to pay for staff to run metal detectors and x-ray machines each morning, the equipment, etc.?  I know when we finally updated our security at the courthouse, it was a big budget hit for the equipment and staff for the checkpoint.  

Bottom line, schools are inherently soft targets.  Yes, you can harden them, but it's gonna cost money, and people aren't gonna like seeing their kids behind armored walls with armed guards.

As for the backpacks, my kids are in high school.  Each carries a backpack daily.  In the pack they have a laptop, charging cord, a few spiral notebooks, a graphing calculator, the occasional book for reading assignments for a class.  Younger, who is on the FIRST Robotics Team, also has a small tool kit, including a Gerber multi-tool, for work on the robots.  Older kid, in training for track season, has a pair of hand weights that are gloves with lead shot sewn into the back of the hand and knuckles, for wearing while throwing shot and disc.  So, essentially, both are lightly armed.   ;)
But yes, the backpacks are necessary.
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Pb

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2018, 11:34:12 AM »
The only potentially effective way of protecting schools that would be inexpensive would be teachers with CCW.

dogmush

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2018, 11:55:46 AM »
As far as effectiveness some combination of RFID badging for admins and kids that only opens doors where you are authorized to be (similar to hospitals these days) and CCTV inside and out with a good facial recognition system and a database (kept up to date) of faces disallowed on the property that alerts a security team who can hit lockdown and call the cops would probably work.

It would allow one button lockdown of the school too, as the security staff could just tell the computer not to open any doors.

I can't imagine what it would cost though.  Millions per school probably, plus ongoing salary for security that was high enough to attract and retain folks that would take a boring job seriously.

Plus the 3 million "I lost my badge and can't get into math" calls per year.


I suspect though, that it would take something like that, or more expensive, to make schools be much safer from this kind of attack.  Of course if you only want them to feel safe, that's cheaper.

Perd Hapley

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2018, 12:45:52 PM »
I wonder if we're actually approaching a point where this is, tragically, such an oft-heard story that people will no longer break down the doors of news websites to find out the shooters name, grievances, Facebook page contents, and Netflix queue. And if that happens, if suicide by mass shooting is no longer a path to instant fame, will there be a marked decline in frequency?
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mtnbkr

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2018, 12:56:47 PM »
Backpacks???

My oldest is in HS.  A backpack is a necessity when you have multiple books, large binders, a laptop (school-provided and necessary for schoolwork), and various other things with no time to get to your locker during the day. 

Why do we need a school of 3,000 children? As noted, this is larger than many towns. "Economies of scale" haven't really panned out as administrative bloat has more than over balanced any such gains.

Why don't we break up these massive school districts and return to more local schools and smaller buildings?
Nobody wants to pay for the schools, teachers, etc.

Also, most of the larger schools I went to, including those in the 3k range, were in lower population areas with lower tax revenues as a result.  The larger school provided greater economies of scale.

The only potentially effective way of protecting schools that would be inexpensive would be teachers with CCW.
Just because they have a CCW and some basic training doesn't make them effective under stress, especially in a chaotic active shooter environment.  I'm not convinced that's the panacea we think it is.

Chris

Hawkmoon

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2018, 01:06:31 PM »

Second, on school security, it is another money thing.  Who is going to pay for staff to run metal detectors and x-ray machines each morning, the equipment, etc.?  I know when we finally updated our security at the courthouse, it was a big budget hit for the equipment and staff for the checkpoint.
 
Bottom line, schools are inherently soft targets.  Yes, you can harden them, but it's gonna cost money, and people aren't gonna like seeing their kids behind armored walls with armed guards.

People don't like seeing their kids get shot, either. If they REALLY don't want their kids to be at risk of getting shot, then they have to stop listening to the bleating sheep and accept the idea that security means hardening the facility, and that doing so will cost money. Maybe the district doesn't really need a superintendent, two assistant superintendents, plus a principal and two or three assistant principals in each school. My high school (back in the early 1960s) was around 1,000 students. We had ONE superintendent, ONE principal, and ONE guidance counselor.  And it was one of the best schools (academically) in the state. (Today there are multiple assistants for everything, an entire guidance department, and the academic rating is far below what it was when I went there. Go figure.)



As for the backpacks, my kids are in high school.  Each carries a backpack daily.  In the pack they have a laptop, charging cord, a few spiral notebooks, a graphing calculator, the occasional book for reading assignments for a class.  Younger, who is on the FIRST Robotics Team, also has a small tool kit, including a Gerber multi-tool, for work on the robots.  Older kid, in training for track season, has a pair of hand weights that are gloves with lead shot sewn into the back of the hand and knuckles, for wearing while throwing shot and disc.  So, essentially, both are lightly armed.   ;)
But yes, the backpacks are necessary.

Apologies, but I find it perversely and ironically amusing that you mention "books" almost as an after-thought.
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mtnbkr

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2018, 01:15:48 PM »
Apologies, but I find it perversely and ironically amusing that you mention "books" almost as an after-thought.

They are in today's schools.  My oldest has very few textbooks.  Everything is done online or via handouts.  One of the few textbooks I've seen her use is for her AP class, but that one stays home.  The books she carries are supplemental books or other things she's reading, not textbooks per se.

Chris

Hawkmoon

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2018, 01:25:44 PM »
Moar fake news: http://www.newser.com/story/255439/nikolas-cruz-questioned-for-hours-then-charged.html

According to this teaser article, "The New York Times notes that of the 10 deadliest shootings in modern US history, three—the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, the Las Vegas massacre, and November's Texas church shooting—have occurred in the last five months."

So what? That means that, of the ten deadliest shootings in "modern" (no explanation of how they define that), 70 percent did NOT happen in the last five months. And why pick five months, anyway? It's not a round number. It's not "this year," or the last half year, or the last year. We measure years in blocks of twelve months to a year, so five is a very arbitrary number. But ... it's just far enough back that it allows them to include the Las Vegas shooting. What a coincidence.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2018, 01:27:55 PM »
They are in today's schools.  My oldest has very few textbooks.  Everything is done online or via handouts.  One of the few textbooks I've seen her use is for her AP class, but that one stays home.  The books she carries are supplemental books or other things she's reading, not textbooks per se.


And we wonder why kids today can't read ...
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lee n. field

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2018, 01:43:51 PM »
Soo, we-all want to "turn Orwell up to 11", to fix this?
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cordex

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2018, 01:47:00 PM »
People don't like seeing their kids get shot, either. If they REALLY don't want their kids to be at risk of getting shot, then they have to stop listening to the bleating sheep and accept the idea that security means hardening the facility, and that doing so will cost money.
Piffle.  Even "hardening the facility" pretty well is like the TSA.  It's mind-bogglingly expensive security theater.  Let's say you did make everyone pass through metal detectors, nude-o-scopes, and gropey pat downs to get into San Quentin Middle School or Alcatraz Elementary.  All those kids are bunched up in a big, soft target outside the door, waiting to get in.

I absolutely hate the idea of kids getting hurt - mine especially.  That said, if my school district ever found the money to go all prison chic with hardened security I'm pulling my kids out.  As horrific as these cases are, for my own children I'd much rather trade off the tiny risk instead of having my kids indoctrinated into an inmate mindset.

makattak

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2018, 01:48:11 PM »
Soo, we-all want to "turn Orwell up to 11", to fix this?

You'll note, I'm for dispersing the targets to decrease the number of possible victims at each location.
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So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Pb

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2018, 01:55:55 PM »
My oldest is in HS.  A backpack is a necessity when you have multiple books, large binders, a laptop (school-provided and necessary for schoolwork), and various other things with no time to get to your locker during the day. 
Nobody wants to pay for the schools, teachers, etc.

Also, most of the larger schools I went to, including those in the 3k range, were in lower population areas with lower tax revenues as a result.  The larger school provided greater economies of scale.
Just because they have a CCW and some basic training doesn't make them effective under stress, especially in a chaotic active shooter environment.  I'm not convinced that's the panacea we think it is.

Chris

I don't think teachers with CCW are a pancea.  However, what we have now is basically nothing, with the exception of a few schools that have cops stationed in them.  Putting cops in every school, as great as that would be, would be extremely expensive.

Regular joes with weapons have been effective in stopping killers in the past (read about Joel Myrick, a principle who captured a school murderer.)

Mass murderers usually surrender (Woodham) or suicide (Paddock) at soon as they face real resistance.  Becoming a victim themselves usually isn't part of their sick fantasies.

Teachers and staff should be allowed to CCW in schools.

dogmush

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2018, 01:57:53 PM »
Soo, we-all want to "turn Orwell up to 11", to fix this?

No, Not really.

I was just musing on what it would take to do one of the "SOMETHING's!" many folks push for after these events.  And, you know, have some chance at it working rather than being security theater.

I'm not sure the cost, monetarily and socially is worth it.

Mak's idea has some merit as well, but more, smaller schools is not without cost either, and provides more targets to people that are looking for schools.

T.O.M.

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2018, 02:02:01 PM »

Apologies, but I find it perversely and ironically amusing that you mention "books" almost as an after-thought.

It's the digital age.  Teachers post articles or texts on Google Docs for the kids to read instead of textbooks.  For the most part, writing assignments are submitted electronically, no more printed research papers or essays (which has seriously dropped my printed expenses.)  Even math is digital, with problems distributed electronically.
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mtnbkr

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2018, 02:06:10 PM »
And we wonder why kids today can't read ...

They read just fine*, they just don't read from textbooks as often as we did.

*My oldest is "honors-level everything" except Chorus, Spanish (her numeric grade is in the high 90s), and her one AP class.  She reads non-school-related books regularly.  I guess the lack of textbooks isn't that much of a problem...

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2018, 02:07:56 PM »
It's the digital age.  Teachers post articles or texts on Google Docs for the kids to read instead of textbooks.  For the most part, writing assignments are submitted electronically, no more printed research papers or essays (which has seriously dropped my printed expenses.)  Even math is digital, with problems distributed electronically.

That's exactly how it works for my oldest.  At first, I was dubious.  I'm still annoyed at the lack of material to bring home, but it does allow for creative work timelines, the ability to work collaboratively, and the ability to deliver assignments even if you can't get to school (such as when sick).

Chris

T.O.M.

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2018, 02:14:53 PM »
Back at work today, a temporary crown on my broken tooth.  Here's where the blame is being placed by the usual suspects around the courthouse...

- Guns (of course)
- Lack of mental health services
- White privilege
- "Toxic masculinity" - yes, I looked it up.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity  This is the safest article I found.
- Heterosexual white men (of course)
- The juvenile justice system.  This was a new one for me.  I have not heard about this shooter having a prior record.  But the blame is that this kid "showed all kinds of red flags" and no one did anything. What they want "the system" to do, I don't know.  Can't go locking people up for posting pictures of themselves with guns on the internet.  
- Violent video games/music/etc.
- Violent games like paintball and airsoft.
- Racism (he was just outed as a member of a white supremacy group)
- Trump

Also heard, and sharing for a sad laugh... "Banning guns because of these mass shootings is like banning dicks because of rape.  The owners of both are highly unlikely to use them criminally, and taking them away doesn't really fix the problem.  Just makes the criminal choose other methods."

Edited to add "capitalism", which I just heard.  If it wasn't for the capitalists making money off of the blood/sweat/tears of the poor working class, more parents could be at home with their kids teaching them right from wrong.  And there would be free mental health care.  And the world would be a better place because we would all work cooperatively...   [barf]
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makattak

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2018, 02:29:51 PM »
Back at work today, a temporary crown on my broken tooth.  Here's where the blame is being placed by the usual suspects around the courthouse...

- Guns (of course)
- Lack of mental health services
- White privilege
- "Toxic masculinity" - yes, I looked it up.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity  This is the safest article I found.
- Heterosexual white men (of course)
- The juvenile justice system.  This was a new one for me.  I have not heard about this shooter having a prior record.  But the blame is that this kid "showed all kinds of red flags" and no one did anything. What they want "the system" to do, I don't know.  Can't go locking people up for posting pictures of themselves with guns on the internet.  
- Violent video games/music/etc.
- Violent games like paintball and airsoft.
- Racism (he was just outed as a member of a white supremacy group)
- Trump

Also heard, and sharing for a sad laugh... "Banning guns because of these mass shootings is like banning dicks because of rape.  The owners of both are highly unlikely to use them criminally, and taking them away doesn't really fix the problem.  Just makes the criminal choose other methods."

Edited to add "capitalism", which I just heard.  If it wasn't for the capitalists making money off of the blood/sweat/tears of the poor working class, more parents could be at home with their kids teaching them right from wrong.  And there would be free mental health care.  And the world would be a better place because we would all work cooperatively...   [barf]

Unsurprisingly the rejection of Christianity and the general secularization of the culture was not among the possible causes, because most of the people you encounter are likely already secularized.

(But there's another to add to the list for you.)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

TechMan

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2018, 04:33:47 PM »
SWMBO showed me a map this morning of the "18 school shootings" that have occurred since 1/1/2018.  I was explaining to her that it was grossly inflated, she wasn't buying it.  The Washington Post, of all MSM outlets, has taken that number and Bloomberg (et. all) to task over it.  https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/02/15/good-work-wapo-completely-crushes-everytowns-bogus-school-shootings-stat/
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 05:23:18 PM by adively »
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KD5NRH

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2018, 05:21:59 PM »
Regular joes with weapons have been effective in stopping killers in the past (read about Joel Myrick, a principle who captured a school murderer.)

I don't think anyone's ever specified what Stephen Willeford is an NRA instructor of, but I notice they don't offer tactical rifle or bullet dodging instructor certifications, and he seems to have done reasonably well under stress too.

Soo, we-all want to "turn Orwell up to 11", to fix this?

Orwell's been done, they're working on Bradbury, hell, maybe Swift is next.

dogmush

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2018, 05:53:49 PM »

Orwell's been done, they're working on Bradbury, hell, maybe Swift is next.

https://youtu.be/3tmd-ClpJxA

?

BobR

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2018, 06:00:32 PM »
Quote

Quote from: BTR on Today at 08:34:12 AM

The only potentially effective way of protecting schools that would be inexpensive would be teachers with CCW.

Just because they have a CCW and some basic training doesn't make them effective under stress, especially in a chaotic active shooter environment.  I'm not convinced that's the panacea we think it is.

Granted it isn't the panacea some think it is but it beats the hell out of stopping bullets with your body to protect the kids.  =|

bob