Author Topic: This one looks bad  (Read 35431 times)

Pb

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2018, 06:05:03 PM »
Apparently there was an armed school resource officer at the school who never encountered the killer for some reason.

p12

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2018, 06:33:49 PM »
My answer, armed teachers. A small security staff. Monitoring of video cameras.

Having POSSIBLE resistance has been documented in the past as being a deterrent.


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French G.

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2018, 07:19:03 PM »
I've heard the half joking solution of three combat vets and a coffee pot, not sure if it wouldn't be a good idea. Screen them, send them to LE academy, give them a cop radio and whatever personal weapons they wanted. No job except friendly interaction with students and shooting what needs shooting.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2018, 08:31:43 PM »
SWMBO showed me a map this morning of the "18 school shootings" that have occurred since 1/1/2018.  I was explaining to her that it was grossly inflated, she wasn't buying it.  The Washington Post, of all MSM outlets, has taken that number and Bloomberg (et. all) to task over it.  https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/02/15/good-work-wapo-completely-crushes-everytowns-bogus-school-shootings-stat/

Good article. The WaPo considers that there have been five "legitimate" (pardon the term) school shootings in 2018. I only know of four. I wish the WaPo had identified which incidents it counts as school shootings, because I'd like to compare it against my list. I have:

  • 1/22/2018 - Italy, TX
  • 1/23 - Benton, KY
  • 2/1 - Los Angeles (Sal Castro Middle School)
  • 2/14 - Parkland, FL

I don't pretend to have a solution. Part of the problem is simply the fact that news is more ubiquitous these days. When I was in high school, I never read any part of the newspaper except the sports section and the comics. I paid no attention to politics, finance, fashion, or other subjects that everyone is now exposed to on a daily and regular basis by the Internet and the feeds on their cell phones. That factor, alone, has to contribute to the spread of the misguided notion that shooting up a school might be a good idea. We know that the Sandy Hook shooter compiled a database of school shootings, and I believe I've read that other school (and mass) shooters have likewise studied previous events in planning their own moment of infamy.

So part of the solution probably would require the media to stop acting like the media and rushing to saturate the headlines with the gory details. That's a tough sell. I had a good friend who was a newspaper editor who went on to become a professor of journalism at a well-known university with a respected (then) school of journalism. He died more than twenty years ago, and even well before his death he bemoaned more than twice the axiom that "body count sells newspapers." That's a sad truth, and it hasn't changed in decades.

It should be clear that more anti-gun laws aren't the solution. Schools are, by existing law, "gun-free" zones. Murder is a felony. When someone has made a conscious decision to ignore multiple felony laws to commit an armed attack on a school only a lunatic would think that adding one more law to be ignored is going to make a difference.

I guess turning schools into TSA checkpoints isn't practical, either. At the same time, it still should not have been possible for a kid who had been expelled to enter the building in the middle of the day (not with the morning in-rush), carrying an AR-15, a gas mask, and smoke grenades, without being detected or confronted until after he had opened fire. Metal detectors and TSA screening at the entrance may be security theater, but whatever this school has for security apparently doesn't even rise to the level of security theater. It would appear they had no effective security whatsoever.

I favor arming teachers and staff. That's one prong of the solution. What else?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 08:46:56 PM by Hawkmoon »
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Hawkmoon

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2018, 08:48:42 PM »
Apparently there was an armed school resource officer at the school who never encountered the killer for some reason.

Wrong place. It was a large, multi-story building. If he was on the other end, on a different floor, the shooter could have easily fired 100 rounds before the cop even got near the area of operations.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2018, 08:54:15 PM »
It's my understanding that the football coach that was killed was also a "resource officer". While not a certainty, had been he been properly armed and trained the outcome could have been very different.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Andiron

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2018, 08:57:22 PM »
It's my understanding that the football coach that was killed was also a "resource officer". While not a certainty, had been he been properly armed and trained the outcome could have been very different.


Even then,  might have just had bad luck vs a guy with a rifle.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2018, 09:22:16 PM »
I understand that but better any chance than no chance.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Hawkmoon

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2018, 10:00:34 PM »
It's my understanding that the football coach that was killed was also a "resource officer". While not a certainty, had been he been properly armed and trained the outcome could have been very different.


I've seen him described as a "security" officer, not "resource" officer. The term "school resource officer" typically (but I guess maybe not universally) refers to a sworn police officer who is assigned to duty with a school or group of schools. Our local high school now has a security team, but they aren't police officers and they aren't armed. They're two or three middle-aged guys who sit behind a desk in the entrance lobby and check IDs when visitors arrive at the school. I'm pretty sure their response if a shooter were to materialize would to maybe press an alrm button, and then run like hell.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2018, 10:33:32 PM »
Update: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5394229/Florida-high-school-shooting-plunges-city-mourning.html

Quote
A local politician told DailyMail.com that the high school has high-definition surveillance cameras that captured every single shot by Cruz and authorities are pouring through them now.

The cameras allegedly picked up Cruz walking across the empty parking lot toward the school carrying his rifle, as classes were in session.

The two school resource officers, from the Broward County Sheriff's Office, are supposed to monitor the perimeter.


DailyMail.com reached out to the sheriff's office for comment, but they did not respond.


So my question still stands: How was a person carrying an AR-15, a gas mask, and smoke grenades -- who had been expelled from the school -- able to just walk into the building in the middle of the day? If there were supposed to be TWO school resource officers monitoring the perimeter, it becomes even more mystifying. Small wonder the sheriff's office hasn't responded -- they need time to get their cover story straight.

Columbine had an armed school resource officer, too. At Columbine, when the balloon went up the SRO was outside the building, in his squad car, so the guy who was supposed to be inside guarding the school ended up on the outside, along with the other cops who had to (sort of) "fight" their way in.

Maybe we don't need more gun laws, maybe we need better training and better protocols for SROs. It certainly needs to be looked at.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2018, 10:40:04 PM »
 [tinfoil]

How many times have we heard that the "proper authorities" had prior warning about one of these events yet did nothing to intervene?

It's enough to make a person wonder if they are actually getting the results they want; more carnage to use as a bludgeon against the 2nd Amendment.
Not so long ago I was unwilling to believe that our government was that evil. These days I'm not so sure.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

KD5NRH

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2018, 10:43:29 PM »

Hawkmoon

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2018, 11:28:29 PM »
[tinfoil]

How many times have we heard that the "proper authorities" had prior warning about one of these events yet did nothing to intervene?

It's enough to make a person wonder if they are actually getting the results they want; more carnage to use as a bludgeon against the 2nd Amendment.
Not so long ago I was unwilling to believe that our government was that evil. These days I'm not so sure.

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."

There were so many missed opportunities along the way with this shooter (he was 19, which makes him an adult no matter how many times his public defender refers to him as a "child") that it's difficult to blame it on a conspiracy -- and I love conspiracy theories. At this point, everyone is heavily into CYA mode.

  • The FBI was warned but they "couldn't positively identify the individual." Come on. The United States government managed to track one cow from Canada to a barn somewhere in Washington. The FBI couldn't find someone who posted in public on Youtube that he wanted to become a school shooter?
  • The superintendent of schools continues to claim they had "no warnings." (Apparently what he means is that the shooter failed to pick up the phone on Wednesday to inform them that he was on the way, locked and loaded.)
  • There were supposed to be two school resource officers monitoring the perimeter of the school site, yet high-res surveillance cameras that picked him up walking across the parking lot with the AR-15 visible weren't noticed. And, despite the fact that there was supposed to be only one way into the building, he was able to walk in -- with an AR-15 -- unchallenged.
  • The mayor has said there was no way to "connect" with the shooter. BS. He had been in treatment -- he dropped out of treatment when his mother died -- which would have been when he needed it most. Somebody could have realized that and reached out.
I fully expect that we'll read about other examples of ball dropping before this incident disappears from the news cycle.
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freakazoid

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2018, 05:06:39 AM »
Here is an interesting tidbit on his supposed "white nationalist" "militia" connections, http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/02/15/florida-school-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-member-white-nationalist-militia-tallahassee-leader-say/341751002/

- "Toxic masculinity" - yes, I looked it up.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity  This is the safest article I found.

You are just now hearing this term? ???

I had read some article where a security guard saw him coming up to the building and had recognized who he was and had radioed it in right before he started shooting, not sure if he saw his weapons or if he just knew who he was.

Also read a comment on facebook where they mentioned that his girlfriend had just broken up with him, and it was Valentines Day. Haven't read any article myself on that one though.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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Hawkmoon

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2018, 07:01:12 AM »
Also read a comment on facebook where they mentioned that his girlfriend had just broken up with him, and it was Valentines Day. Haven't read any article myself on that one though.

That has been mentioned in more than one article, but she didn't "just" break up with him. The breakup was last year, she had found a new boyfriend, and the shooter's expulsion was at least in part for picking a fight with the new boyfriend. The same articles also reported that he had been abusive toward the ex-girlfriend when they were an item.
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mtnbkr

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2018, 07:16:20 AM »
How many times have we heard that the "proper authorities" had prior warning about one of these events yet did nothing to intervene?

How many times do people freak out when someone is "detained" due to those "prior warnings" without yet committing a crime?

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2018, 07:18:13 AM »
Granted it isn't the panacea some think it is but it beats the hell out of stopping bullets with your body to protect the kids.  =|

bob

I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are.  I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall. 

Chris

cordex

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2018, 07:48:16 AM »
I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are.  I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall. 
That doesn’t concern me too much.  Any armed opposition to an active shooter threat - even incompetent opposition that creates more innocent casualties - is likely to reduce deaths overall.

I will say to all of the steely-eyed warriors on this site: The instant cops get there put your guns away or you are going to get shot. A lot.

Fly320s

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2018, 07:50:23 AM »
I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are.  I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall. 

Chris

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Perd Hapley

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2018, 07:54:30 AM »
I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are.  I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall. 

Chris


Does that mean you don't want there to be any teachers having guns at schools? Or do you mean that arming teachers will require a lot of expensive training? What do you think is the difference between your concern about this, and the generic fear that an armed citizenry will mean too many accidental shootings?
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freakazoid

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2018, 08:26:46 AM »
I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are.  I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall. 

Chris

I find that scenario unlikely.
But I also agree with cordex, and I've expressed it when talking about the Vegas shooter.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Hawkmoon

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2018, 08:39:34 AM »
I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are.  I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall. 


Somehow, I don't think the guy with the AR-15 is going to be in the middle of a crowd.
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mtnbkr

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2018, 08:42:52 AM »
Better to try and fail than not try at all.
Until it's your kid that gets shot by the teacher.

Does that mean you don't want there to be any teachers having guns at schools? Or do you mean that arming teachers will require a lot of expensive training? What do you think is the difference between your concern about this, and the generic fear that an armed citizenry will mean too many accidental shootings?

I specifically want to move beyond the trite statement that CCW will magically prevent this sort of occurrence.  We need to understand that an active shooter scenario in a crowded and chaotic school is not the same as defending yourself against an armed mugger at bad breath ranges.

Most of the training required to qualify for CCW is all but useless in a mass shooting scenario.  So, when someone bloviates about a "teacher with a CCW", I will assume the minimal amount of training and a teacher who is carrying a gun that might see a box of ammo a year, who doesn't do anything more advanced than shoot at static targets from a static position.  Or, we can be a bit more specific and talk about the environment, the scenario, and the skills that will ensure a successful outcome and push for those to be incorporated into the discussion.  CCW is a less than minimal spec to me.   

I'm interested in people and processes, not tools. 

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2018, 08:47:09 AM »
Somehow, I don't think the guy with the AR-15 is going to be in the middle of a crowd.

He's not going to be standing fully clear of people with a clear background and a safe backstop either.  He's going to be moving and firing and kids are going to be screaming and running.  Miss Beadle will have to pull her barely used KelTec 9mm and deal with the threat in that environment. 

Don't we want to step away from the trite CCW discussion and talk about real qualifications and capabilities, to discuss actual standards that exceed the minimum spec for individual armed defense?  Or shall we continue with the gun-as-a-talisman trope?

CCW in the context of these scenarios means the absolute minimum requirements to carry a gun.  We should expect more for those we expect to defend masses of students.  Define the training requirement, fund it, and provide incentives for teachers and staff willing to reach for that goal. 

Chris

K Frame

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Re: This one looks bad
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2018, 09:00:08 AM »
Brits in my facebook feed are going absolutely *expletive deleted*ing nuts.

Seems that everyone of them is going on about how no massacres since handguns were banned at Dunblane 20 years ago.

Why don't you worry about your vaunted, failing, health system and let us not give a *expletive deleted*ck about you?
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