Author Topic: Portland ...  (Read 68437 times)

Pb

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #525 on: July 31, 2023, 10:03:22 AM »
It's common to blame homelessness on "liberal" policies. Yet I never hear what solutions conservatives offer.

Forcible institutionalizing severely mentally ill is a common solution conservatives have suggested repeatedly for homelessness (including myself)... probably around 1/3 of homeless are crazy.  If I remember correctly, courts declared this solution unconstitutional decades ago, leading to some of the problems we have today.

States are not allowed to force crazy people to live in mental institutions unless they are a "danger to themselves or others."  So many of them alternate between living in the gutter and jail... and destroying the quality of life of the cities they live in.

zahc

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #526 on: July 31, 2023, 10:26:11 AM »
Interesting; I would have thought the libertarian strain of American conservativism would be against the government solution here. Government, institutionalizing people with public funds, is a conservative solution? Really just shows how politically confused I am.

I sort of agree with you that it would help though.

I could be wrong but I suspect an increasing fraction of the homeless population are not irredeemably mentally ill but responding to incentives in a system and to the point, a housing market that has no place for them. Perpetuating those deep structural problems seems to have bipartisan support.
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Pb

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #527 on: July 31, 2023, 10:29:35 AM »
Interesting; I would have thought the libertarian strain of American conservativism would be against the government solution here.

Well, I'm not a libertarian but more of a traditional conservative.  I actually line up best with the paleoconservatives, except I am mostly free-trade.

cordex

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #528 on: July 31, 2023, 10:51:53 AM »
It's common to blame homelessness on "liberal" policies. Yet I never hear what solutions conservatives offer. If anything, conservatives tend to oppose anything that could plausibly reduce the problem.
Homelessness is a symptom that can be caused by a wide variety of situations.  There is not a single cause nor is there a one-size-fits-all solution.  Some people are temporarily homeless for a period of time for a variety of transient reasons - loss of a job/reduction in salary, loss of a lease, conflict with family, natural disaster or other damage/destruction to their home, etc.  Some of these people would benefit from temporary assistance (either government-based or private charity) and others will move past their temporary homelessness on their own even without that assistance.

More than half of the chronically homeless are driven to homelessness by their addictions and the prioritization of feeding those addictions over shelter.  For these people it is often not that there are no options available to them, it is that they choose not to utilize shelters or personal connections which place restrictions on drug use and aren't willing to seek treatment for their addictions (again, something that already tends to be freely available).  Giving these people housing simply gives them a resource to be neglected and mined of scrap.  They are unwilling to hold down a job beyond the amount of time it takes to raise money for more drugs.  Giving direct subsidy simply funds their self-destructive habits.  I'm not sure of an appropriate conservative response to people who have other options available but are unwilling to abandon their self-destructive lifestyle to take advantage of those options other than to respect that they have made their decision and arrest them where they violate the law.

Another significant cause of homelessness is severe mental illness.  SAMHSA claims a full quarter of chronic homeless suffer from severe mental illness, and certainly a significant number have their situation worsened because of a less severe mental illness.  I don't have a good answer to this either, other than likely having to reestablish forcible institutionalization for some of them. 

If they have a solution, why don't conservatives pitch those solutions and thereby gain political power as a result?
With a few notable exceptions of strongly leftist cities who have gone out of their way to encourage homelessness through direct and indirect subsidies, I'm not sure homelessness is a big enough issue to make political hay on.  In those cities where it is actually a huge issue, the voters absolutely aren't going to elect conservatives no matter how good their ideas relating to homelessness are.

Is this another case of conservatives vaguely associating something bad with opposition without actually proposing any solution? Because that seems to be the real platform of the republican party nowadays.
You do realize that the criticism you've leveled against conservatives and the republican party above also describes your post precisely, right?

Brad Johnson

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #529 on: July 31, 2023, 12:16:09 PM »
More than half of the chronically homeless are driven to homelessness by their addictions and the prioritization of feeding those addictions over shelter.  For these people it is often not that there are no options available to them, it is that they choose not to utilize shelters or personal connections which place restrictions on drug use and aren't willing to seek treatment for their addictions (again, something that already tends to be freely available).  Giving these people housing simply gives them a resource to be neglected and mined of scrap.  They are unwilling to hold down a job beyond the amount of time it takes to raise money for more drugs.  Giving direct subsidy simply funds their self-destructive habits. 

...

Another significant cause of homelessness is severe mental illness.  SAMHSA claims a full quarter of chronic homeless suffer from severe mental illness, and certainly a significant number have their situation worsened because of a less severe mental illness.

This. So much this.

A local group found out the hard way about "compassion camps". Simple concept and done with the noblest of intents, but ultimately an abject failure for the reasons zahc mentioned. The group provided basic shelter (tents), simple meals, toiletries, and toilet facilities on a no-questions-asked basis. All residents had to do was behave themselves, maintain personal hygiene, and do a few things around camp to keep things tidy (mow, pick up trash, etc). The group provided help with social services, job hunting, and in-town transport for employment and critical needs. It was great for a about a month then devolved into a cesspool of drugs, prostitution, and rampant communicable diseases accompanied by a sudden surge in vandalism and petty theft in surrounding areas. More than once law enforcement found wanted persons hiding there under an assumed name. The camp is still there but it's a shadow of what was intended - mostly just a camping area with a fence to keep it out of sight of the road.

Brad
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Pb

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #530 on: July 31, 2023, 02:03:45 PM »
It is my understanding that short term homeless... basically, people experiencing a lot of bad luck, like someone living in his car after losing his job... are not rare at all.  These people can be helped a lot more effectively than the long term homeless. 

The long term homeless are usually addicts, crazy people, and a certain percentage of incredibly lazy people (someone who would literally rather live on a sidewalk than work.. yes they exist).

The long term homeless are frequently destructive, with open drug use, defecation, violence, trashing up areas and so on.  This becomes a big problem when cities tolerate illegal behavior by the homeless.  Cities should have no tolerance for drug use, theft, violence, defecation, sidewalk camping and so on by homeless people.  When you ignore their destructive behavior it gets worse.

Cities experiencing these horrible homeless problems are mainly those that tolerate crime committed by homeless people.

dogmush

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #531 on: July 31, 2023, 04:36:41 PM »
Interesting; I would have thought the libertarian strain of American conservativism would be against the government solution here. Government, institutionalizing people with public funds, is a conservative solution? Really just shows how politically confused I am.

Just like every other political movement small "l" libertarianism has different strains and not all libertarians agree on everything.  While I think  that government does more harm than good when it expands, as a sane libertarian I concede that there are things in a functioning civilization and country that will require some form of government to run them.  Armies, Borders, and Diplomacy with other countries are all easy things to say it's appropriate for a Federal Government to do.

Locally, (or state) there are some things that it makes sense to hand of to a gov as well, and I think caring humanely for the severely mentally ill that either don't have a family, or whose family can't care for them is a valid use for community funds and effort.  The trick, as always, is doing it humanely and compassionately, while not allowing the program to creep into institutionalizing folks that can care for themselves but make choices the gov doesn't like.

As cordex mentioned there are homeless folks that have made the choice to act in a way that leads to their situation.  We need to respect that choice, and only interfere when they transgress on either the laws or the rights of other people in the community.  But there are also homeless folk that are genuinely sick through no choices of their own and will need the communities help to live out there lives in some semblance of safety and comfort, and also not be allowed to hurt others.

You can admit this and still be libertarian.

JTHunter

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #532 on: July 31, 2023, 10:20:20 PM »
Quote
"Are there no prisons?  No workhouses?  Let them go there."

We didn't HAVE these problems when we had the institutions to protect the majority from the minority that were causing the problems.
You may not like the institutions BUT they can house and monitor people that need medical help, either for mental problems or chemical abuse.
Then there are the prisons for the violent ones that either refuse help or can't be controlled.
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230RN

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #533 on: August 02, 2023, 09:32:25 AM »
It's common to blame homelessness on "liberal" policies. Yet I never hear what solutions conservatives offer. If anything, conservatives tend to oppose anything that could plausibly reduce the problem. If they have a solution, why don't conservatives pitch those solutions and thereby gain political power as a result? Is this another case of conservatives vaguely associating something bad with opposition without actually proposing any solution? Because that seems to be the real platform of the republican party nowadays.

From my own point of view, a large part of this is resentment at the fact that we are institutionally encouraging homelessness by our "liberal" policies.  I'm not 100% sure we should be encouraging the "global" set of behaviors which surrounds this group of people.

The "solution" you are looking for is clear. 

Sounds hardnosed, but a lot of "liberals" seem to be unconscious of the cause-and-effect nature of "the dole."  Helping the incapacitated and just plain unlucky is commendable --and even necessary -- but carrying that to extremes is counter-productive --which should have become obvious as hell by now by any measure of realistic thinking.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 10:37:08 AM by 230RN »
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Ben

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #534 on: August 03, 2023, 09:52:55 AM »
Paywall, but apparently Andy Ngo is suing Portland antifa members and the trial is ongoing. Limited information here, but it looks like antifa is trying to pack the court galleries to block others from entering, and there has already been an incident in the courtroom.

https://twitchy.com/brettt/2023/08/02/report-andy-ngo-is-suing-portland-antifa-n2385937

From what I can see, this is nowhere in the MSM.
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RocketMan

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #535 on: August 03, 2023, 11:27:10 AM »
Paywall, but apparently Andy Ngo is suing Portland antifa members and the trial is ongoing. Limited information here, but it looks like antifa is trying to pack the court galleries to block others from entering, and there has already been an incident in the courtroom.

https://twitchy.com/brettt/2023/08/02/report-andy-ngo-is-suing-portland-antifa-n2385937

From what I can see, this is nowhere in the MSM.

That's because Antifa is just an idea.
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MechAg94

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #536 on: August 03, 2023, 12:51:25 PM »
From my own point of view, a large part of this is resentment at the fact that we are institutionally encouraging homelessness by our "liberal" policies.  I'm not 100% sure we should be encouraging the "global" set of behaviors which surrounds this group of people.

The "solution" you are looking for is clear. 

Sounds hardnosed, but a lot of "liberals" seem to be unconscious of the cause-and-effect nature of "the dole."  Helping the incapacitated and just plain unlucky is commendable --and even necessary -- but carrying that to extremes is counter-productive --which should have become obvious as hell by now by any measure of realistic thinking.

Terry, 230RN
It is also many liberals that love policies (environmental, housing "standards", and permitting) that make is harder to build and maintain housing, especially cheap housing.  Rich liberals love to say "not in my backyard" over in California where there is limited land available to build anything.  Then they make it harder on owners/landlords by preventing them from kicking out people who fail to pay rent.  Zoning rules also make it hard to build new housing or convert existing buildings to housing.   All of that increases the cost to building housing, rent housing, and maintain older housing.  We have mentioned these things before.  Some conservatives like to support that stuff also, but IMO it is rich/upper middle class liberals who push it the most. 

Does this prevent homelessness?  I think it helps by giving an avenue for someone who is homeless to get out of that situation on their own.  It also gives an avenue for poor people to makes ends meet without giving up and living off hand outs and welfare. 

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MechAg94

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #537 on: August 03, 2023, 12:55:16 PM »
I forget whether it was said here or somewhere else, but I heard someone say recently that their are something like 50 or more different overlapping federal welfare programs of one kind or another.  That may or may not include programs for the homeless.  Then their are the state and private programs.  We have mentioned the Homeless Industrial Complex before.  There is a ton of money being dumped into programs meant to help people every year.  More than likely most of the money is getting eaten up in the bureaucracy or big corporations who provide "services".  Cutting that stuff and reducing the average tax burden would be a net positive IMO.
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Ben

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #538 on: August 09, 2023, 01:08:52 PM »
Andy Ngo lost his case. Interesting that the opposing lawyer is on record as saying "I am antifa" and that she would remember the jurors' faces. This court case should have been held outside the Portland area.

https://twitchy.com/aaronwalker/2023/08/09/andy-ngo-verdict-jury-nullification-or-jury-intimidation-n2386121
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #539 on: August 09, 2023, 04:05:00 PM »
How the hell did that not result if a mistrial?
How is that not jury intimidation?
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WLJ

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #540 on: August 09, 2023, 04:18:52 PM »
How the hell did that not result if a mistrial?
How is that not jury intimidation?

They know where the judge lives
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Pb

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #541 on: August 10, 2023, 09:50:49 AM »
It is also many liberals that love policies (environmental, housing "standards", and permitting) that make is harder to build and maintain housing, especially cheap housing.  Rich liberals love to say "not in my backyard" over in California where there is limited land available to build anything.

I don't think anyone that owns a single family dwelling wants to zone apartments near where they live.  At least, I know Arfcom erupts in rage at the idea.

cordex

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #542 on: August 10, 2023, 10:20:20 AM »
I don't think anyone that owns a single family dwelling wants to zone apartments near where they live.  At least, I know Arfcom erupts in rage at the idea.
Yeah, NIMBY is real for apartments, and for kind of understandable reasons.  An empty field was converted into apartments 200 yards or so from my old house and crime spiked immediately and dramatically.  In a normal market it would also have depressed the value of our house, but we didn't sell in a normal market.

Subdivisions are looked at the exact same way in the rural area I live in now, and for largely the same reasons.

WLJ

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #543 on: September 30, 2023, 11:26:18 AM »
Remember Jo Ann "defund the police" Hardesty? Well she just got a big payout from the police over a lawsuit where she was seeking $5 mil

Portland police to pay nearly $700,000 to former official who pushed to defund department
https://www.foxnews.com/us/portland-police-pay-nearly-700000-former-official-pushed-defund-department
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WLJ

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #544 on: January 06, 2024, 12:36:21 AM »
More fun in Portland

Quote
Portland, Oregon, is grappling with a cluster of a highly infectious illness that spreads through fecal matter and puts the city’s large homeless population at high risk, according to health officials.

"While we are currently seeing an increase in Shigella cases in the Portland metro area, the risk to the broader public remains low at this time and there are no measures for most folks to take at this time. The best thing we can all do to prevent both respiratory viral illness and diarrheal illness is to keep practicing good hand hygiene," Multnomah County Deputy Health Officer Teresa Everson said in a comment to Fox News Digital.

Good luck with the hygiene part 

Quote
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) describes Shigella as bacteria found in fecal matter that can infect someone if ingested. The illness can cause people to experience bloody and prolonged diarrhea, fever, stomach pain, and "feeling the need to pass stool (poop) even when the bowels are empty."
Considering many of these people poop in the street I can only imagine what it's like there  [barf]

Portland health officials report waste-borne illness rampant among city's homeless
https://www.foxnews.com/us/portland-health-officials-report-waste-borne-illness-rampant-among-citys-homeless
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #545 on: January 06, 2024, 12:46:14 AM »
I don't think anyone that owns a single family dwelling wants to zone apartments near where they live.  At least, I know Arfcom erupts in rage at the idea.

When they built the apartments down the street from my house, they permanently blocked off the streets between the apartments and the single-family homes. Course, it didn't keep this blackguard from moving in.
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K Frame

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #546 on: January 06, 2024, 08:25:41 AM »
Right up the street from me there's a nice condo complex.

Right across the street from that (and sharing a property line with my community) is a Title 13 co-operative complex.

There have been a few problems originating in the Title 13 complex over the years, but overall it's not been bad. They're pretty proactive about getting rid of troublemakers.
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WLJ

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #547 on: January 31, 2024, 10:09:11 AM »
A day late and a million dollars short.
Gee, maybe decriminalizing drugs like fentanyl wasn't such a great idea.

Quote
Oregon leaders have declared a 90-day state of emergency in Portland to battle the city's debilitating fentanyl crisis three years after decriminalizing possession of all drugs.

Governor Tina Kotek, Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler and Multnomah County Chair Jessica Vega Pederson made the declaration and are directing their agencies to work with first responders in connecting people addicted to the synthetic opioid with resources including drug treatment programs and to crack down on drug sales.

Fentanyl addicts who interact with first responders in Portland's downtown in the next 90 days will be triaged by this new command center. Staff can connect people with various resources from a bed in a drug treatment center to meeting with a behavioral health clinician to help with registering for food stamps.

'Our country and our state have never seen a drug this deadly addictive, and all are grappling with how to respond,' Kotek said.

The declaration is a recommendation from a governor-established task force that met for several months last year to determine ways to rejuvenate downtown Portland.

Dem-led Portland declares state of emergency over fentanyl crisis: Oregon Governor wades into turmoil three years after woke city decriminalized drugs that has caused 'economic and reputational harm'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13028305/portland-oregon-declares-state-emergency-fentanyl-crisis.html
« Last Edit: January 31, 2024, 10:50:58 AM by WLJ »
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Ben

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #548 on: January 31, 2024, 10:44:29 AM »

Dem-led Portland declares state of emergency over fentanyl crisis: Oregon Governor wades into turmoil three years after woke city decriminalized drugs that has caused 'economic and reputational harm'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13028305/portland-oregon-declares-state-emergency-fentanyl-crisis.html

It's important to remember that this isn't a Portland thing (other than the voters there pushed this over the top). Oregon state decriminalized hard drugs, and while Portland is in the spotlight, you see the consequences of it even in Eastern Oregon.
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Blakenzy

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Re: Portland ...
« Reply #549 on: January 31, 2024, 11:08:51 AM »
It's not just decriminalization. Government at all levels is facilitating the ingress and encouraging use of drugs. From the Federal Government to the local Municipalities.
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