Big Boom

[cordex]

Straining at gnats much?

My point was that a large enough fire is typically sufficient without the use of a primary explosive initiator. In other words, had the fire instead started via a cigarette discarded into fast food wrappers and still spread enough it likely would have still exploded.

As far as your deep concern about doublethink, I’m not aware of anything that is 100% in all circumstances safe.  AN can apparently be relatively safely stored in bulk but if exposed to a large fire it can become dangerous.

Water can be relatively safely stored too, but can also be a catastrophe in the wrong circumstances.

A can of gasoline can be relatively safely stored in an appropriate container in your garage, but aerosolized and mixed with oxygen and exposed to a spark and you have a bomb.

For that matter, most houses exposed to fire can kill you six or seven different ways if you are stuck in the structure. Safe as houses my rear end!

[Jim147]

I got some stumps I need to remove but all I have is about 50 pounds of thermite and 10-20 pounds of black. Maybe I should run by the farm store next week and see what they have.

[RoadKingLarry]

Most of the farm stores around here sell tannerite.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Unfortunately AN is one of those things that (as has been pointed out) is really a very safe chemical.  But when things go wrong, they go *really* wrong.  History is filled with examples of AN going all asplody when everything goes wrong.   So I would agree with the videos assertion that AN is not an explosive, but it can definitely go boom in the wrong circumstances.

[230RN]

I thank you, cordex and others.  So how come it keeps happening?

It's safe and it blows cities apart every once in a while and it leeps keeps happening.

So doublethink: the ability to hold two exactly opposite positions at the same time.

By the way, if I am recalling correctly (perhaps from a BATFE memo?), you are only allowed to possess 10lb of Tannerite mix, it has to be mixed where it is used, and it's only for entertainment purposes.

Somebody correct me on that, please, that info may be outdated.

Also, AFAIK, KNO₃ is sold in bulk in most rural garden stores as a stump remover.

Now, lest I be accused of adding additional information for the unworthy purpose  of changing the subject, I repeat part of the beginning of this post:

It's safe and it blows entire cities apart every once in a while and it keeps happening.

So doublethink: the ability to hold two exactly opposite positions at the same time.

Gnats?  Nuts.

Terry, 230RN

Edited for housekeeping: "leeps"

[De Selby]

So with a sufficient size pile, you get tactical nuke level explosions?

Hmmmmm. I guess plutonium only detonated in specific circumstances too.

[cordex]

Because it is cheap, widely used around the world, and because it costs less to store it incorrectly than to take precautions?  Tens of millions of tons of the stuff are made and used every year. Yes, a tiny percentage is stored improperly and can every once in a while blow up. In this case it is possible that government corruption played a role as well.

Again, water is “safe” to store in large quantities too, but cities are damaged or destroyed every year because dams or levees fail.  Just because something is usually safe doesn’t mean it is perfectly, and always safe, or that it can’t ever go catastrophically wrong.

No one is saying that ammonium nitrate is 100% and absolutely safe.

[230RN]

^ You were, essentially.  Wow.  A chink in your thinking.  Gnats, nuts.

So with a sufficient size pile, you get tactical nuke level explosions?
...

Sorta yes.

While not AN, but other conventional explosives, see "Trinity Test Calibration shot" and "Operation Minor Scale," et cetera for examples of conventional explosives used to simulate nukes.  

The former involved TNT and the latter ANFO (fuel oil mixed with the AN.)

    

         ^Minor Scale

The W54 was one of the smallest nuclear warheads deployed by the United States. It was a very compact implosion-type nuclear weapon design, designed for tactical use and had a very low yield for a nuclear weapon, in the range of 10 to 1,000 tons TNT equivalent.  (wiki)

So yes. sorta,  (There were some explosive equivalencies stated earlier in this thread.)

Your risk assessment is off-kilter and AN ain't safe and large quantities should be stored in properly engineered magazines.

The point is this:  It doesn't matter how it went off, whether from internal fires, or aerial salutes getting in, or cigarettes wrapped in candy bar wrappers, or lightning strikes, or ship collisions, or spontaneous combustion...

It friggin' went off.

Viz, Beirut, 04 August 2020, 15:08:18 UTC, viz Texas City, viz Halifax...

It friggin' went off.

Terry said that and he ain't takin' it back.

[K Frame]

"So how come it keeps happening?"

Why do natural gas explosions keep happening?

Maybe because... it's cheap, it's relatively safe, it does the jobs asked of it well?

Maybe because sometimes things happen because of unforeseen factors or just out and out mistakes?

It's not like these explosions happen every 3 days and twice on Tuesdays.  Quadruplethink!

[230RN]

When was the last time a natural gas explosion took out a whole city?

Your risk assessment process is off kilter.

[K Frame]

A WHOLE city?

So, Beirut, Lebanon, has completely ceased to exist?

Gone! GAME OVER, MAN!

Your assessment of the damage is a bit... bullshit.

Here... Wikipedia has a fairly comprehensive list of natural, propane, and gasoline explosions, including more than few that killed 100+ people... including the Cleveland East explosion that killed about 130 people and destroyed a square mile of Cleveland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_explosion


Those are just from the 1900s. Natural and/or manmade (town) gas have been in use in the west for the better part of 250 years.

[230RN]

<off topic>

Tsk, tsk.  Such language. You shouldn't post when you're angry, Mike.

</off topic>

[K Frame]

And I'd advise you to not post at all if your analysis is that Beirut is gone... 

[230RN]

Don't be ridiculous.

[WLJ]

 

[230RN]

Yeah, agreed.  I say, let  Mike have the last expletive, and then close the thread.  How about it, OP?

[K Frame]

You asked the last time a natural gas explosion took out 'an entire city.'

I pointed out that Beirut isn't gone. Texas City wasn't removed from the map. Halifax didn't land on the moon.

I provided a list of examples where natural gas caused enormous explosions that caused significant city damage and loss of life to counter your apparent belief that AN explosions are common place.

And all you can concentrate on a single *GASP!* swear... 

Deflection from your incorrect assessment of the nature and extent of the disaster.

You and others have been beating the conspiracy drum in this thread since the beginning with absolutely nothing but paranoia to support it.

And, if you're so very, very upset by the presence of swears in this thread...

Why did you swear (and depend on the censor filter to hold up your pants) in reply 23?

Your words... "No *expletive deleted*it, Sherlock."

Naughty naughty, Terry. Maybe go stand in the corner and think about your potty mouth calling the kettle black?

[WLJ]

Back on topic

Video from very early in the fire. May give more clues

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSsYSdg7wIE

[230RN]

I feel for those firefighters and their families.

I'm surprised the elevators weren't knocked over.  Must have been the mass of grain resisting the blast.

DId they ever dig down to the subterranean chamber and find anyone there?

Terry

[RoadKingLarry]

it is possible that government corruption played a role as well.

Possible?

 

[zxcvbob]

Back on topic

Video from very early in the fire. May give more clues

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSsYSdg7wIE

There was a smaller explosion about 30 seconds before this whole thing detonated.

[WLJ]

I feel for those firefighters and their families.

I'm surprised the elevators weren't knocked over.  Must have been the mass of grain resisting the blast.

DId they ever dig down to the subterranean chamber and find anyone there?

Terry

Saw a video last night where they said there's a "Labyrinth" of rooms and  passageways under the elevators. Video showed they found one and were trying to dig under the mass of grain and debris to reach the others but no one found yet.

Sorry, having trouble finding the same video at the moment

[cordex]

^ You were, essentially.  Wow.  A chink in your thinking.  Gnats, nuts.

I was not, but if there is a place where I or anyone else said that then please point me in that direction.

Your risk assessment is off-kilter and AN ain't safe and large quantities should be stored in properly engineered magazines.

Interesting idea. Do you further propose that any and all materials which can act as a tertiary explosive should be regulated and stored in explosives magazines and all that entails?  Have you thought this through?

I do wonder how the drastically increased price and decreased availability of effective fertilizer would impact food production. Would be a shame if Terry’s Law ended up killing more people through starvation than it saved from exploding.

That said, I agree that in this case (and many others) the AN was not being stored wisely, or correctly stored.

Which does not mean that it needs to be stored in explosives magazines.

[WLJ]

The larger question is not whether or not it was stored "correctly" but why was it still there in the first place after sitting there for what, 6 years? Considering how cash strapped Lebanon is it seems like someone would have tried to sell it on the open market by now. What is 2,700 tonnes of AN worth? How much space does it take up? It's probably taking up valuable warehouse space

[Brad Johnson]

What is 2,700 tonnes of AN worth? How much space does it take up?

A) About a million five at current prices.

B) A lot. AN is relatively bulky per unit weight.

Brad