SIG MCX Spear

[Ben]

Cool looking rifle, but holy cow! $8000 for the civi version. Uses the .277 SIG Fury. It has been submitted for military NGSW (Next Generation Squad Weapon) evaluation. I didn't see if the military would adopt the .277 cartridge? Apparently the rifle is setup to switch to both 6.5 Creedmoor and 7.62 NATO.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/new-for-2022-sig-sauer-mcx-spear/

[K Frame]

"$8000 for the civi version."

 

 


Absolutely *expletive deleted*ing ludicrous.

[HankB]

They've clearly read the wisdom of P.T. Barnum who reputedly said "There's a sucker born every minute."

[K Frame]

Holy crap!


I just took a look at the specifics for the cartridge...

80,000 psi using a hybrid steel and brass case.

I can't even imagine how reloading that is going to go...

[MechAg94]

Holy crap!


I just took a look at the specifics for the cartridge...

80,000 psi using a hybrid steel and brass case.

I can't even imagine how reloading that is going to go...

Does it come with a bunch of ammo?

[WLJ]

"$8000 for the civi version."

 

 


Absolutely *expletive deleted*ing ludicrous.

They out SCARed the SCAR

[HankB]

Holy crap!


I just took a look at the specifics for the cartridge...

80,000 psi using a hybrid steel and brass case.

I can't even imagine how reloading that is going to go...

Nothing new about that hybrid case - DECADES ago, I remember seeing small ads in the back of guns rags from a company on the left coast (I want to say Huntington Die Specialties, but my memory isn't sharp enough to swear to it) that was selling cases they called something like "Steel Heads" . . . they were designed to be loaded to higher pressures. They never really caught on.

[K Frame]

Nothing new about that hybrid case - DECADES ago, I remember seeing small ads in the back of guns rags from a company on the left coast (I want to say Huntington Die Specialties, but my memory isn't sharp enough to swear to it) that was selling cases they called something like "Steel Heads" . . . they were designed to be loaded to higher pressures. They never really caught on.

No, nothing new about the case. There were versions of cases with a steel head threaded onto a brass body as early as the 1870s. I believe that Ballard Everlasting cartridges were such in one variation.

What IS new, however, is that this is a factory ammo item. And that means that people are going to be interested in reloading it. I can't even imagine the pressure rings that are going to form at the junction between the brass and the steel head after two or three passes through a loading die.

A cartridge like this could demand an entirely new loading method -- neck and shoulder sizing conventionally followed by a roller swaging to bring the body back to proper diameter to eliminate the pressure ring.

[Perd Hapley]

It won the competition.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/you-can-buy-the-armys-new-rifle-from-sig-sauer/

[Angel Eyes]

The AK Guy weighs in:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7HomeiXESA

[HankB]

It won the competition.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/you-can-buy-the-armys-new-rifle-from-sig-sauer/

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/us-armys-new-rifle/#axzz7RI3DEZpt

The new round is basically a .308/7.62 NATO necked down to .277 and  - in military trim - loaded to 80,000 PSI with a compound brass/steel case. 140 grain bullet at 2800 according to the article. These pressures are necessary to achieve that velocity with a short suppressor-equipped barrel.

In "civilian" trim ammo pressures will be held to around 50,000 PSI (seems a bit low) for maybe 2400 fps.

I'll go out on a limb here and predict that when used in varying climate conditions with 80,000 PSI ammo, durability issues with the rifle will surface.

[WLJ]

In "civilian" trim ammo pressures will be held to around 50,000 PSI (seems a bit low) for maybe 2400 fps.

Why 50k when 308/7.62x51 is already ~62k psi (50k CUP)?

[Ben]

Curious on how this cartridge will relate to body armor. I actually know zero about what body armor any of our potential adversaries use.

Also, right now it appears it will be limited distribution within the Army, but I recently read in military.com I think that the future plan is for wider distribution. I wonder how that will affect the whole "everybody (except for the usual snakeater groups) has compatible ammo" thing, both for us and NATO stuff?

[WLJ]

Britain: Say hello to the 280 British
US: Say hello to our new wonder round the 7.62x51
Britain: Ours is better
US: Use ours or else You too NATO get in line!
Britain: Sigh, okay if you insist
US: Say hello to our new wonder round the 5.56
Britain: But it's really just 280 light and didn't you just force us to go to 7.62?
US: USE IT! You too NATO!
Britain: Sigh
US: Say hello to our new wonder round the 6.8x51
Britain: 280 is that you?
US: Shut up! 

[MechAg94]

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/us-armys-new-rifle/#axzz7RI3DEZpt

The new round is basically a .308/7.62 NATO necked down to .277 and  - in military trim - loaded to 80,000 PSI with a compound brass/steel case. 140 grain bullet at 2800 according to the article. These pressures are necessary to achieve that velocity with a short suppressor-equipped barrel.

In "civilian" trim ammo pressures will be held to around 50,000 PSI (seems a bit low) for maybe 2400 fps.

I'll go out on a limb here and predict that when used in varying climate conditions with 80,000 PSI ammo, durability issues with the rifle will surface.

I was going to make a comment about WLJ's post, but the civilian trim might as well be 280 British if it is under powered to that degree.  The high velocity is the reason to use it.  Is there some sort of safety issue with using the higher pressure? 

I thought I heard the competitors (or one of them) achieved the velocity without super high pressures.

[HankB]

Not sure how much of what's been released to the public domain so far will be proven accurate. When the 5.56 was first adapted and issued, there were all kinds of problems in the field, many related to the type of powder used to achieve the required velocity - it didn't work so well in a hot, humid climate. It took a long time to work things out, and even now there are differing reports from the field about lethality, penetration, accuracy, etc. Make one tweak (e.g., shorter barrel for convenience) and something else changes (reduced velocity) in the wrong direction.

Hopefully there's enough institutional memory in the military to avoid repeating the early mistakes made with the 5.56, but even with the newer "temperature stable" powders now on the market, I wonder how a compound case loaded to 80,000 psi will perform under varying conditions, especially as round count goes up . . . and up . . . and up.

And . . . I can't help but wonder if "green" mandates or even DEI considerations are playing some sort of a behind the scenes role in the round's development.

[Fly320s]

In theory, Sig and Big Army have done all of that research and testing on the powder and pressure.

[Perd Hapley]

So the plan is to have combat and support units use different cartridges? That sounds like a terrible idea.

[WLJ]

Meanwhile someone at Sig HQ is looking at a painting and asking "Was he was drugs when he did this?"

[HankB]

In theory, Sig and Big Army have done all of that research and testing on the powder and pressure.

I have the utmost confidence in SIG's developmental testing - they're sure to catch problems before the new rifle and its ammo are deployed.

https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/safety-recall-notice-sig-sauer-cross-bolt-action-rifle
https://www.sigsauer.com/rifle-safety-warning
https://www.sigsauer.com/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program

And of course the U.S. Army's sterling work with things like the advanced heat treating of early Springfield bolt action rifles, the first M16s deployed to Vietnam, and (getting bigger now) the incredible DIVAD system is the stuff of legends.

[K Frame]

In theory, Sig and Big Army have done all of that research and testing on the powder and pressure.

In theory big army did all of the powder research for the 5.56, too.

Then at the last minute they called an audible, switched powders to ones that had NOT been thoroughly vetted, and the rest, as they say, is histrionics... 

[WLJ]

Sorry to sound like a mod but how about we move this to the thread that was started on this very subject
https://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=65978.msg1338198#msg1338198

[WLJ]

In theory big army did all of the powder research for the 5.56, too.

Then at the last minute they called an audible, switched powders to ones that had NOT been thoroughly vetted, and the rest, as they say, is histrionics...

And the AR-15/M16 has never lived it down with some.
I think it was Winchester that did that and after watching a few Forgotten Weapons videos it wasn't the first time either. IIRC they changed the load in the middle of the 30 Carbine trials which causes more than one of the submitted guns in the trials to choke. Funny how afterwards the winning gun was a Winchester product . Remember some pistol trials where they did the same.

And just remembered. Wasn't it also Winchester that overloaded their 9mm NATO loads and that was largely responsible for a few of the first M9s in service to fail? The M9/92 has never lived that one down in the minds of many as well.

[K Frame]

As I understand it the approval to switch the 5.56 round from Du Pont IMR powder to Winchester ball powder, in an effort to gain additional velocity without a big jump in chamber pressure, was authorized by the Army's rifle trial acceptance board. It was not, nor could it have been, a unilateral decision.

[Ben]

Here's a dumb question: Will there be the same potential rifle/cartridge compatibility issues between the .277 and 6.8x51 as there are between the .223 and 5.56?

I'm not even clear on if the 6.8 will be available in the civilian world, or only the .277.

Additionally, I see that Sig is putting out a civilian special edition with a 13 inch barrel and a factory can. Doesn't that mean two tax stamps? I can't see this rifle as an AR pistol.

https://martinezgunshop.com/product/mcx-spear/