Author Topic: Titanic tourist sub goes missing  (Read 15903 times)

Boomhauer

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #250 on: June 23, 2023, 09:06:37 AM »
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WLJ

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #251 on: June 23, 2023, 09:26:22 AM »
So even a small leak at depth would be squirting into the sub with a stream somewhat more powerful than from your average gasoline pressure washer from Home Depot.

More like a water jet cutter.

And that's why there's no such thing as a small leak at those depths. Any leak, even the tiniest one, will start to cut the hull open in an instant.
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K Frame

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #252 on: June 23, 2023, 09:33:50 AM »
"And that's why there's no such thing as a small leak at those depths. Any leak, even the tiniest one, will start to cut the hull open in an instant."

If there even was a leak. Given what I've been hearing about the sub, I'm betting it was just an immediate catastrophic collapse.
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WLJ

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #253 on: June 23, 2023, 09:39:57 AM »
"And that's why there's no such thing as a small leak at those depths. Any leak, even the tiniest one, will start to cut the hull open in an instant."

If there even was a leak. Given what I've been hearing about the sub, I'm betting it was just an immediate catastrophic collapse.

Yep

In the Scott Manley video above he calculated the force that hit them inside the sub equivalent to around 50kg of TNT
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230RN

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #254 on: June 23, 2023, 09:44:49 AM »
accidentally posted.  Meant to PM.
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dogmush

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #255 on: June 23, 2023, 09:45:50 AM »
More like a water jet cutter.

No where near a WaterJet.  Like literally an order of magnitude less.  Waterjet's run at 60,000 to 90,000 psi, and often have abrasive added to help the cut.

So even a small leak at depth would be squirting into the sub with a stream somewhat more powerful than from your average gasoline pressure washer from Home Depot.

Kinda depends on where in the water column they were.  If we go with the "happened an hour and a half into the descent" then yeah, roughly.  If it happened on the bottom at 400 atm, then like twice the pressure of your gas pressure washer.

But as we discussed several pages ago, a leak is not what happened here.  A leak, and a pressure hull failure are two very very different things.  A leak is bad, but you have some time to get it stopped* before the added weight of the water overcomes the reserve buoyancy of the craft and you are stuck sinking.  How much time depends on the leak, but some time.  An implosion (especially with a relatively brittle material like carbon composite) you are unlikely to even know is happening.


*on a normal, well designed sub anyways.  This one didn't seem to have a lot of damage control supplies or risk mitigation in it's design.  If they started leaking their only hope would have been to dump everything dumpable and run for the landing barge before she got too heavy.

WLJ

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #256 on: June 23, 2023, 09:49:02 AM »
Media: Are you going to recover the bodies?
The Adm at the press conference: I'm just going to pretend they didn't ask me that.
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WLJ

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #257 on: June 23, 2023, 10:11:19 AM »
They may poke around for a bit but I highly doubt there's anything to recover that would be useful in an investigation.
Bodies? What Bodies?
So what's left? Oh yeah, Let the finger pointing and law suits begin!
Netflix is probably already casting black and trans actors to portray the passengers and a Trump look-alike for the CEO for their latest based on a true story movie
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WLJ

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #258 on: June 23, 2023, 10:17:43 AM »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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WLJ

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #259 on: June 23, 2023, 10:27:33 AM »
How about decompression instead of compression?
This may be of some interest here if you want to know what happened when some deep sea divers accidentally rapidly decompressed in a decompression chamber.  [barf]

They really don't go into too much detail but those with weak stomachs may want to avoid.
Sure there more detailed articles on the internet but this should suffice for most.

Byford Dolphin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byford_Dolphin
« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 12:13:30 PM by WLJ »
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #260 on: June 23, 2023, 10:55:32 AM »
Netflix is probably already casting black and trans actors to portray the passengers and a Trump look-alike for the CEO for their latest based on a true story movie

See Reply #238
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #261 on: June 23, 2023, 12:16:08 PM »
This may be of some interest here if you want to know what happened when some deep sea divers accidentally rapidly decompressed in a decompression chamber.  [barf]

They really don't go into too much detail but those with weak stomachs may want to avoid.
Sure there more detailed articles on the internet but this should suffice for most.

Byford Dolphin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byford_Dolphin

Yeah, that was bad. Read about it a couple years ago. Essentially instant mincemeat from gas expansion in their own body fluids. Gasses rushing out of the chamber throat just served to more widely distribute what was left of the poor bastard nearest the door.

Brad
« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 12:35:57 PM by Brad Johnson »
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MillCreek

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #262 on: June 23, 2023, 12:58:02 PM »
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2023-06-22/titanic-james-cameron-titan-submersible-deaths-oceangate-submarine

Uh oh.

“This OceanGate sub had sensors on the inside of a hull to give them a warning when it was starting to crack,” he told ABC News. “And I think if that’s your idea of safety, then you’re doing it wrong. They probably had warning that their hull was starting to delaminate, starting to crack. ... [W]e understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.”
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lee n. field

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #263 on: June 23, 2023, 12:58:52 PM »
Now that the whole news charade about "they're alive and only have hours of air left" is done, the MSM is going into, "the chances of recovering the bodies" mode.  ;/

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WLJ

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #264 on: June 23, 2023, 01:06:02 PM »
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2023-06-22/titanic-james-cameron-titan-submersible-deaths-oceangate-submarine

Uh oh.

“This OceanGate sub had sensors on the inside of a hull to give them a warning when it was starting to crack,” he told ABC News. “And I think if that’s your idea of safety, then you’re doing it wrong. They probably had warning that their hull was starting to delaminate, starting to crack. ... [W]e understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.”

Scott Manley brought that up last night and asked
What kind of warning does it give you? 5 seconds? 1 second? Once it starts cracking that's it, you're dead. (Can't remember his exact wording but that was the gist of it)

"[W]e understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.”"

Somebody pulled that out of their arse
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Northwoods

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #265 on: June 23, 2023, 01:08:37 PM »
Scott Manley brought that up last night and asked
What kind of warning does it give you? 5 seconds? 1 second? Uh, yeah, you're screwed. Once it starts cracking that it, you're dead.(Can't remember his exact wording but that was the gist of it)

"[W]e understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.”"

Somebody pulled that out of their arse

I don’t see how they can know that unless there were comms beyond the pings. 
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WLJ

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #266 on: June 23, 2023, 01:17:19 PM »
I don’t see how they can know that unless there were comms beyond the pings.

Unless there's info about the comms they haven't told us there's no way to know. The only people who would know without such info are, well, no longer with us right now and I don't think this thing had any kind of blackbox.

I'm sure there's going to be some  [tinfoil] floating around on this if not already.
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WLJ

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #267 on: June 23, 2023, 01:27:30 PM »
Hubris vs the sea. Guess which one has the perfect winning track record.

Quote
In the messages, Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."

What do you think now? Oh wait...

OceanGate CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries'
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6495c2a2523d5b126170836f%26OceanGate%20CEO%20dismissed%20safety%20warnings%20as%20%27baseless%20cries%27%262023-06-23T16%3A08%3A28.027Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:67457690-4ebd-4824-afaa-15e21af63229&pinned_post_asset_id=6495c2a2523d5b126170836f&pinned_post_type=share

I'm just upset he took 4 others with him  :mad:
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WLJ

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #268 on: June 23, 2023, 02:11:44 PM »
More on that liability waiver

Quote
A liability waiver drawn up by OceanGate asked customers to assume 'full responsibility' for the risk of death - even if the company was negligent, it has emerged.

The 'release of liability' agreement, drawn up in April 2022, repeatedly mentions the risk of death by travelling in the company's submersibles.

'I hereby assume full responsibility for the risk of bodily injury, disability, death, and property damage due to the negligence of any Released Party while involved in the operation,' the document states.

Released Parties include OceanGate, its staff and other members of the expedition.

More info and copies of the liability waiver at the link

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12226909/OceanGate-liability-waiver-asks-customers-responsibility-company-negligent.html

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dogmush

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #269 on: June 23, 2023, 02:21:47 PM »
"You're remembered for the rules you break"

https://twitter.com/stonking/status/1671945151961333784?s=20


Well, He's not wrong........


Any bubblehead want to chime in on making a pressure hull of different materials?  One would have to account for the differing compression coefficients at the joints, yes?  Some kind of strong but flexible joint?  Or just pray the difference isn't more than the elasticity of your hull material?

MillCreek

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #270 on: June 23, 2023, 02:25:44 PM »
^^^I was going to say that generally speaking, liability waivers are not worth the paper they are printed on in Washington state, except for some narrow circumstances.  I note that Oceangate is right here in Snohomish County, which means they are subject to the jurisdiction of either the Snohomish County Superior Court, or the Federal District Court for the Western District of Washington down in Seattle.  So I would not pin my hopes on a waiver in either of those two courts.  To the extent they are enforceable, the typical waiver would apply in terms of the award of damages, but does not prevent a suit from being filed.  So you still have the costs of defending a suit.  If liability waivers worked up here, I would have every single patient sign one as a condition of medical treatment, but I don't.

However, I see from the UK newspaper article that Oceangate has a corporate presence in the Bahamas, and the waiver expressly provides that any disputes or court cases related to the waiver will be held in the Bahamas.  So I will be interested to learn how this plays out.

One way or the other, I predict a lot of legal fees in the future for Oceangate, and once they run through their corporate insurance, bankruptcy should soon follow.
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

230RN

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #271 on: June 23, 2023, 03:33:24 PM »
So even a small leak at depth would be squirting into the sub with a stream somewhat more powerful than from your average gasoline pressure washer from Home Depot.

https://www.machinemfg.com › waterjet-cutting-guide

"Waterjet Cutting: The Ultimate Guide for Precision Cutting
May 23, 2023 UHP water cutting, also known as waterjet or water jets, is a high-energy (380MP ) water flow generated by multi-stage pressurization of ordinary water. This water is then expelled at a speed of nearly 1,000 meters per second through a highly precise ruby nozzle (Φ0.1-0.35mm), making it a highly efficient cutting method."

https://www.unitconverters.net/pressure/megapascal-to-psi.htm

https://youtu.be/FXk76rWYdEs (3:50)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 04:13:52 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

WLJ

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Re: Titanic tourist sub goes missing
« Reply #272 on: June 23, 2023, 04:23:44 PM »
More on that
"[W]e understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.”"
They left off three words in the above article.

Quote
Cameron said: 'The way it fails is it delaminates. You have to have a hull, a pressure hull, made out of a contiguous material like steel, or like titanium, which is the proven standard.'

'This OceanGate sub had sensors on the inside of the hull to give them a warning when it was starting to crack. And I think if that's your idea of safety, then you're doing it wrong. And they probably had warning that their hull was starting to delaminate, and it started to crack...

'It's our belief we understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.'

In other words a wild ass guess that IF they had known the hull was failing they MAYBE COULD HAVE dropped the weights and the media is running with it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227555/Titanic-director-James-Cameron-reveals-Titan-subs-Achilles-heel.html

« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 05:03:27 PM by WLJ »
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WLJ

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"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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