Dementia in the Federal prison system

[MillCreek]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/11/opinion/dementia-prisons.html

An interesting article about a dementia unit in a Federal BOP medical center. It makes me wonder about what is accomplished by continuing to imprison someone who no longer remembers their crimes.  The article also mentions the difficulty in finding placement for these inmates if they were to be released.

Many years back, the Washington Department of Corrections bought an old hospital near Yakima and turned it into a facility for inmates requiring nursing home care. I think it was subsequently closed due to expense. I always wondered what they started doing with the inmates who still require that level of care.

Edited to add: I was curious and discovered the Washington DOC now runs an assisted living unit at the Coyote Ridge correctional facility.

[Pb]

If you release demented violent criminals, someone (probably still the taxpayer) is going to have to take care of them.

The solution quite simple.

Execute serious violent criminals immediately after the appeal is finished.

Cane and release the non-violent criminals.

[230RN]

...

[MechAg94]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/11/opinion/dementia-prisons.html

An interesting article about a dementia unit in a Federal BOP medical center. It makes me wonder about what is accomplished by continuing to imprison someone who no longer remembers their crimes.  The article also mentions the difficulty in finding placement for these inmates if they were to be released.

Many years back, the Washington Department of Corrections bought an old hospital near Yakima and turned it into a facility for inmates requiring nursing home care. I think it was subsequently closed due to expense. I always wondered what they started doing with the inmates who still require that level of care.

Edited to add: I was curious and discovered the Washington DOC now runs an assisted living unit at the Coyote Ridge correctional facility.

On that point:
1.  It is justice for the victim, not just punishment for the criminal. 
2.  How can you be certain it is genuine and not someone angling for an early release.  Hard to make written exceptions that can't be exploited.

[cordex]

On that point:
1.  It is justice for the victim, not just punishment for the criminal. 
2.  How can you be certain it is genuine and not someone angling for an early release.  Hard to make written exceptions that can't be exploited.

Good points.  Also, even legitimate failing to remember a specific crime doesn't mean reduced criminal inclination.

[MillCreek]

On that point:
1.  It is justice for the victim, not just punishment for the criminal. 
2.  How can you be certain it is genuine and not someone angling for an early release.  Hard to make written exceptions that can't be exploited.

Just about every state and the Federal prison system allow for 'compassionate release' which is usually the release of elderly or gravely-ill inmates.  Dementia is considered a progressive and ultimately terminal disease, although the speed of progression is hard to predict in many cases.  Back when I was the risk manager for the home health and hospice lines, I saw a lot of dementia patients (dementia is now the most common hospice admit) and I would not want to go that way.

[Northwoods]

Just about every state and the Federal prison system allow for 'compassionate release' which is usually the release of elderly or gravely-ill inmates.  Dementia is considered a progressive and ultimately terminal disease, although the speed of progression is hard to predict in many cases.  Back when I was the risk manager for the home health and hospice lines, I saw a lot of dementia patients (dementia is now the most common hospice admit) and I would not want to go that way.

If I develop dementia I hope a friend will help me hike out to a spot I like to hunt deer.  Leave me with written instructions to take a pill every time an alarm on my watch or phone goes off and have that set to an interval slightly longer than my short term memory allows.  Ideally 2-3 such doses would exceed the LD-50 for that drug.  That way I could just enjoy the scenery until I fell asleep.  And never wake up.

If I’m still lucid enough they could leave me with a pistol and written directives so I’m reminded to shoot myself.  Or enough pills to kill me if I can’t operate the gun anymore.

If pills are used send rescue folks the next day before I get icky.  If a pistol, wait until next spring so the snow is melted and I’m not icky anymore.

[MillCreek]

^^^And of course, Washington and many other states also offer the option of aid in dying using medication prescribed by a clinician.  Most states have organizations, such as End of Life -Washington, in Washington state, that will help you find a clinician who participates in the process.  FYI, virtually all Catholic healthcare organizations and many secular healthcare organizations do not permit their employees or facilities to be used in the death with dignity process.

[Northwoods]

^^^And of course, Washington and many other states also offer the option of aid in dying using medication prescribed by a clinician.  Most states have organizations, such as End of Life -Washington, in Washington state, that will help you find a clinician who participates in the process.  FYI, virtually all Catholic healthcare organizations and many secular healthcare organizations do not permit their employees or facilities to be used in the death with dignity process.

Heck with that.  If I’m going to off myself it’s not going to be in some doctors office.  And it won’t be at home.  I’ll go where I can do it privately, and then emts or similar can collect me later.  A few hours or several months later, depending on the ick factor expected.

[dogmush]

^^^And of course, Washington and many other states also offer the option of aid in dying using medication prescribed by a clinician.  Most states have organizations, such as End of Life -Washington, in Washington state, that will help you find a clinician who participates in the process.  FYI, virtually all Catholic healthcare organizations and many secular healthcare organizations do not permit their employees or facilities to be used in the death with dignity process.

Wouldn't a Dementia diagnosis almost automatically make you ineligible for those programs?  I assume they have some requirement to be of sound mind to make the decision.

[RoadKingLarry]

Not a fan of assisted suicide laws.

https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-toronto-7c631558a457188d2bd2b5cfd360a867

[cordex]

Not a fan of assisted suicide laws.

https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-toronto-7c631558a457188d2bd2b5cfd360a867

Have you heard the gospel of our Lord MAID?”

[MillCreek]

Wouldn't a Dementia diagnosis almost automatically make you ineligible for those programs?  I assume they have some requirement to be of sound mind to make the decision.

For most programs, yes.  You generally have to be competent in order to avail yourself of the services.  There are some people suggesting that your durable power of attorney for healthcare should be able to consent on your behalf, but I have not seen any programs actually implement that in the USA.  So the dilemma for someone with dementia or an acute neurological condition is to pull the plug while you are still able to cognitively do it.

I cite the example of Robin Williams, who had terminal dementia, and hung himself while he was still able to do so.

[lee n. field]

Not a fan of assisted suicide laws.

https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-toronto-7c631558a457188d2bd2b5cfd360a867

Way, way way too much of a slippery slope.

[JTHunter]

For most programs, yes.  You generally have to be competent in order to avail yourself of the services.  There are some people suggesting that your durable power of attorney for healthcare should be able to consent on your behalf, but I have not seen any programs actually implement that in the USA.  So the dilemma for someone with dementia or an acute neurological condition is to pull the plug while you are still able to cognitively do it.

I cite the example of Robin Williams, who had terminal dementia, and hung himself while he was still able to do so.

He wasn't the only one.  There have been many actors that have killed themselves for a variety of problems.  Some had cancer, others had dementia, some were "bored" like George Sanders.  He was the voice of Sher Kahn in the animated "Jungle Book" from Disney.  He took a bunch of barbiturates.

[dogmush]

Not a fan of assisted suicide laws.

https://apnews.com/article/covid-science-health-toronto-7c631558a457188d2bd2b5cfd360a867

Way, way way too much of a slippery slope.

I don't necessarily disagree that it's a bad idea to encourage the .gov to encourage people to off themselves, but on the other hand it's kinda the ultimate proof you are not free amd are owned by the .gov that you can't even leave this world on your own terms.

[lee n. field]

I don't necessarily disagree that it's a bad idea to encourage the .gov to encourage people to off themselves, but on the other hand it's kinda the ultimate proof you are not free amd are owned by the .gov that you can't even leave this world on your own terms.

(Not that it's right.)  The means to do so are still readily at hand.

[Pb]

I don't necessarily disagree that it's a bad idea to encourage the .gov to encourage people to off themselves, but on the other hand it's kinda the ultimate proof you are not free amd are owned by the .gov that you can't even leave this world on your own terms.

We aren't owned by the government as you said.  We are owned by God, and he forbids suicide (which is a form of murder).

I can certainly understand why people would choose suicide.  My emotions excuse it under some situations.  I have been extremely ill with chronic pain and despair (hyperacusis).  I know why people in similar situations would rather be dead, as indeed that is exactly what I thought. 

However, God knows better than me.  We aren't supposed to live life under our own terms, though indeed God lets us to this if we wish for the most part.  With free will there are consequences, both good and bad, both in this life and after death.

[dogmush]

We aren't owned by the government as you said.  We are owned by God, and he forbids suicide (which is a form of murder).

You may incorrectly believe that if you wish, my problem is that the supposedly secular government will happily enforce  your beliefs on me, to the point of locking me up if it feels I'm a "danger to myself"

Philosophy aside, the government exercises it's ownership of you significantly more noticeably than any god.

[Pb]

Well, if you disagree with me that is okay.  I could easily see myself agreeing with you if my viewpoint was slightly different.

"Legalizing suicide" has multiple practical problems, disregarding the morality of suicide in general (which I can't do).  One is that it is a slippery slope to doctors killing people involuntarily... babies, children, and disabled people.  Killing of infants is happening in the Netherlands right now.  This is exactly how Hitler started genocide... with persuading the public that doctor assisted suicide was humane, and then moving on to infants and the disabled with the Aktion T4 program.

The Nazis made a film about a man killing his terminally ill wife to persuade people to accept this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_klage_an

It turns out when people disregard what God says about all sorts of things (killing people, marriage, sex, etc) bad things are more likely to happen... whether you think God is a lie or not.

[WLJ]

What do we do about dementia in the federal government? But that's a subject for another thread.

[Pb]

Elect it, apparently. 

[dogmush]

"Legalizing suicide" has multiple practical problems, disregarding the morality of suicide in general (which I can't do).  One is that it is a slippery slope to doctors killing people involuntarily... babies, children, and disabled people.  Killing of infants is happening in the Netherlands right now. 

Well gosh, it's a good thing we have kept suicide illegal in the US so that we don't have any doctors killing babies here.  [/sarcasm]

What do we do about dementia in the federal government? But that's a subject for another thread.

I'm starting to think we might want more dementia in the government.  If they don't know where they are or who they are talking to they will be less cravenly corrupt and successful at selling out our interests at every turn.  Just a random distribution of decisions would be less self serving and corrupt than the current legislature.  [/sarcasm again]

[Pb]

Well gosh, it's a good thing we have kept suicide illegal in the US so that we don't have any doctors killing babies here.  [/sarcasm]

Assisted suicide is legal in some of the states already.  It is highly popular among the general public.

I don't think the USA is doing well at all in regards respect for human life... so I agree very much with the gist of your comment.  Abortion until birth is legal in some American states, and this idea has considerable support.  The other day I read an article in Tablet magazine.  Two mostly pro-choice commentators were simultaneously condemning laws banning abortion in early stages of gestation, and then bemoaning laws permitting abortion until birth.  I thought that was remarkably short-sighted of them.  They support killing some innocent human beings, and then are aghast that people take that its logical conclusion and start killing other innocent people.

 I think we are a nation in decline.

[RoadKingLarry]

It starts out being allowed.
Then it is strongly encouraged. See Canada.
How long before assisted suicide becomes mandated euthanasia?