Port Union Strike

[Parker Dean]

I’m a man so unlike the union beta *let's not go there* I am perfectly capable of negotiating my employment terms myself as I have done my entire working life.

This puts me in mind of something my father told me when I was in grade school and complaining about the kids who couldn't keep up. "Not everybody can do what you can." I took the lesson and relaxed towards others a bit.

[Northwoods]

This puts me in mind of something my father told me when I was in grade school and complaining about the kids who couldn't keep up. "Not everybody can do what you can." I took the lesson and relaxed towards others a bit.

Not totally sure what you mean.

Regardless, I've always been of the opinion that if I need a union to protect me from my employer, I don't need a union, I need a different employer.

[JTHunter]

Speaking of union "chicanery" - - -     

[De Selby]

You're making "pro" arguments for unions in general, which is fine, and the pro and con of unions in general is certainly a topic for debate. The topic here is the port unions, specifically the ILA. Are you saying that everything they're demanding is reasonable for a union to demand? A demand for a 70%+ increase to an already six figure salary is reasonable? I see that Australia is going full speed ahead on port automation.

Why do the union’s asks need to be reasonable? Do you get offended when major corporations make ambit claims to each other, or propose mass layoffs unfairly?

I don’t accept the premise that working people should grovel to the moneyed classes for their pay, and tip their caps with gratefulness like it’s charity for their managers to employ and pay them.

[dogmush]

I don’t accept the premise that working people should grovel to the moneyed classes for their pay, and tip their caps with gratefulness like it’s charity for their managers to employ and pay them.

I don't accept that premise as what was happening here.  That's your fantasy world creeping in again.

[Boomhauer]

I don’t accept the premise that working people should grovel to the moneyed classes for their pay, and tip their caps with gratefulness like it’s charity for their managers to employ and pay them.

How would you even know anything about blue collar employment term negotiations, soft hands?

[De Selby]

I don't accept that premise as what was happening here.  That's your fantasy world creeping in again.

I was responding specifically to Ben, who asked me if I thought the union pay ask was reasonable. And the union trying to get high wages for its members is what it should be doing. We don’t expect private companies to worry about the rest of the economy and everyone else when they do business.

[De Selby]

How would you even know anything about blue collar employment term negotiations, soft hands?

Using what you think is your identity (noting, I don’t assume you’re blue collar because you work for a tractor corp) to claim no on else understands your hardship is something minorities frequently do to claim that white Americans simply do not understand their privilege.

This is the sort of mindset unions are useful for in the workplace. I’m sure if you’re blue collar you come across management who think you are unintelligent/uncultured because of your role, but those sorts of stereotypes shouldn’t impact how are you treated or your pay. I don’t believe you should be at the mercy of your manager for your political views either, but all of these things unrelated to your work can and do become bigger issues in non-union work environments than in places where you have some actual bargaining power.

[Boomhauer]

Using what you think is your identity (noting, I don’t assume you’re blue collar because you work for a tractor corp) to claim no on else understands your hardship is something minorities frequently do to claim that white Americans simply do not understand their privilege.

This is the sort of mindset unions are useful for in the workplace. I’m sure if you’re blue collar you come across management who think you are unintelligent/uncultured because of your role, but those sorts of stereotypes shouldn’t impact how are you treated or your pay. I don’t believe you should be at the mercy of your manager for your political views either, but all of these things unrelated to your work can and do become bigger issues in non-union work environments than in places where you have some actual bargaining power.

I didn’t claim hardship or struggle of any kind, just noting that someone like you who has never been in the blue collar world would know nothing of it yet instead you act like you are Labor’s Best Friend.

You doing it is actually much more akin to the Democrats thinking they know what is best “for the poors” or for the “minorities” than anything else.
 

[Ben]

Why do the union’s asks need to be reasonable?

They don't. The unions can ask for the most unreasonable concessions they want. They shouldn't be surprised if they don't get them though.

Regarding the ILA:

They can demand triple their current wages if they want, but people get to call that unreasonable and say they don't deserve it. Or just laugh at them.

They can demand a ban on port automation, but the rest of us can shake our heads at their selfishness (remember - ILA = I Love America) at wanting to put us behind Third World countries so that they continue to be journeyman abacus operators while the rest of the world uses computers.

They can strike, with their leader publicly stating that he wants to "create a national crisis", and then actually create a crisis that puts lives at danger because they chose to strike in the middle of a national disaster where supplies they process are an integral part of saving lives. They could have created good PR and public goodwill by, immediately after the hurricane hit, stating that they were suspending their strike until response efforts have wound down (because ILA = I Love America). Instead, they continued their strike and wondered why we were all disgusted with them. The only reason they have now postponed their strike is because of the hate they received for fist pumping to "create crisis" while people were dying.

So make all the unreasonable asks you want, but don't be surprised when people are disgusted with you for it.

[De Selby]

I didn’t claim hardship or struggle of any kind, just noting that someone like you who has never been in the blue collar world would know nothing of it yet instead you act like you are Labor’s Best Friend.

You doing it is actually much more akin to the Democrats thinking they know what is best “for the poors” or for the “minorities” than anything else.

Well no, you did claim hardship entitling you to an authority on the subject. You didn’t really put forward your blue collar resume, nor did you ask if I had one. You just ignored the substance and tried to claim that whatever I said must not matter because of my work history and implied yours is different.

That’s no different to your bosses assuming you have no knowledge of economics or public policy because you repair tractors, and are therefore unqualified to speak on the role of unions in the workforce. But I’m sure they won’t say that about you so long as you’re backing their ability to pay you less and fire you at will - that makes you useful to them.

[De Selby]

They don't. The unions can ask for the most unreasonable concessions they want. They shouldn't be surprised if they don't get them though.

Regarding the ILA:

They can demand triple their current wages if they want, but people get to call that unreasonable and say they don't deserve it. Or just laugh at them.

They can demand a ban on port automation, but the rest of us can shake our heads at their selfishness (remember - ILA = I Love America) at wanting to put us behind Third World countries so that they continue to be journeyman abacus operators while the rest of the world uses computers.

They can strike, with their leader publicly stating that he wants to "create a national crisis", and then actually create a crisis that puts lives at danger because they chose to strike in the middle of a national disaster where supplies they process are an integral part of saving lives. They could have created good PR and public goodwill by, immediately after the hurricane hit, stating that they were suspending their strike until response efforts have wound down (because ILA = I Love America). Instead, they continued their strike and wondered why we were all disgusted with them. The only reason they have now postponed their strike is because of the hate they received for fist pumping to "create crisis" while people were dying.

So make all the unreasonable asks you want, but don't be surprised when people are disgusted with you for it.

If the worst unions do is behave like a corporation it’s hard to be so outraged. Do you morally condemn companies that injure the public good through price gouging, for example with medical supplies or fuel? Or is that just free market economics?

[Ben]

If the worst unions do is behave like a corporation it’s hard to be so outraged. Do you morally condemn companies that injure the public good through price gouging, for example with medical supplies or fuel? Or is that just free market economics?

If you're outraged because companies behave outrageously, and unions behave like companies, should you not also be outraged by unions?

[Northwoods]

Unions (especially large ones like ILA, UAW, IAM, etc) do not exist to serve their members.  They exist to serve themselves. No differently than any other large organization.

[Brad Johnson]

Hey, they don't want automation so let's remove it. ALL of it, even the stuff they already use. Send them out with pikes, hand carts, and a hearty handshake. Be sure to post signs reading "Congratulations, you got exactly what you wanted." in every blank space.

Brad

[JTHunter]

Hey, they don't want automation so let's remove it. ALL of it, even the stuff they already use. Send them out with pikes, hand carts, and a hearty handshake. Be sure to post signs reading "Congratulations, you got exactly what you wanted." in every blank space.

Brad

    

[French G.]

I completely understand when someone feels like joining a union is the best way to provide for their children.  Any union members shop steward or higher should be treated like the behind the lines non uniformed enemy saboteurs that they are.