Egypt: What's happening?

[MillCreek]

Let me be the first to point out a country with no repressive taxes, lax firearms laws and the ability to keep the fruits of your own labor: Somalia.

[MicroBalrog]

Let me be the first to point out a country with no repressive taxes, lax firearms laws and the ability to keep the fruits of your own labor: Somalia.

Except for the taxes enforced by warlords. Somalia is not an anarchy and has never been one.

[De Selby]

Let me be the first to point out a country with no repressive taxes, lax firearms laws and the ability to keep the fruits of your own labor: Somalia.

I always find it funny that, apart from economies that were already advanced, the communist satellites generally blow the competition out of the water.  They had better education, better medicine, and better security than any of the third world countries that adopted free market policies in the 80s.  But I guess all that pales in comparison to the economic freedoms enjoyed by Latin American peasants.

[MicroBalrog]

I always find it funny that, apart from economies that were already advanced, the communist satellites generally blow the competition out of the water.  They had better education, better medicine, and better security than any of the third world countries that adopted free market policies in the 80s.  But I guess all that pales in comparison to the economic freedoms enjoyed by Latin American peasants.

Better education? In what subject? Biology, with genetics being a pseudoscience, or electronics, where cybernetics was the corrupt whore of the bourgeois capital? History? What subject?

And which specific Communist satellites do you speak of?

[De Selby]

Better education? In what subject? Biology, with genetics being a pseudoscience, or electronics, where cybernetics was the corrupt whore of the bourgeois capital? History? What subject?

And which specific Communist satellites do you speak of?

Better education across all subjects - literacy rates were higher, basic math, etc.  I'm thinking of Bulgaria as an example. Compare that medieval place that developed under communist rule to similarly medieval countries that entered into "free market" systems.

[AZRedhawk44]

Finally, some reasonable insight that is neither blatantly pro-western or pro-durkadurkaboom, and comments on how it all probably came to pass:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/the_story_of_the_egyptian_revo.html

Very interesting:

I do not aim to turn this into a personal story, but those people are my friends and family. It is a personal story to me. My neighbors were all stationed in my father-in-law's house with men on the roof to lookout for possible attackers. A friend of mine was shot at by a gang of thieves and another actually killed one of them to defend his house and wife. Another friend's brother arrested 37 thieves that day. The army's only role in all of this was to pass by each area to pick up the arrested thieves. Army officers informed the street committees that anyone with an illegal weapon should not worry and should use it. Any death of one of the thieves would not be punished.

I'm very enheartened by this turn of events, actually.  It sounds like Egyptian youth learned about the freedom of communication and peaceable assembly to petition for redress of grievances.

The Muslim Brotherhood had a better-organized propaganda machine and piggybacked onto the protests, sparking violence.  Much like the anarchist insurgents in the Seattle WTO protests that turned it into a riot.

The Egyptians don't want the MB to take over egyptian politics, and they started cleaning house in their own neighborhoods when trash came calling... and the Army supported those decisions.  the Army will be in charge of Egypt for awhile, and they're not going to side with the MB.

I think that Egypt will be short-term hurt, but experience long-term gain from this turn of events.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

never mind

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

the Army will be in charge of Egypt for awhile, and they're not going to side with the MB.


hope you are right but i think that presumes facts not in evidence

[longeyes]

Better education across all subjects - literacy rates were higher, basic math, etc.  I'm thinking of Bulgaria as an example. Compare that medieval place that developed under communist rule to similarly medieval countries that entered into "free market" systems.

The supremacy of a culture doesn't depend on how many B students you have; it depends on how many creative people you have in the top one-tenth of one per cent.

[longeyes]

If the choice is China or Somalia, we'd all better find an island to hide on.  ASAP.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Finally, some reasonable insight that is neither blatantly pro-western or pro-durkadurkaboom, and comments on how it all probably came to pass:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/the_story_of_the_egyptian_revo.html

Interesting, thank you.

It seems the immolation in Tunisia has nothing to do with it.  Neither do the Muslim Brotherhood or El Baradei. 

[De Selby]

Interesting, thank you.

It seems the immolation in Tunisia has nothing to do with it.  Neither do the Muslim Brotherhood or El Baradei. 

No on one here-the tunisian revolution was the obvious spark. 

How are the muslim brotherhood in any way connected to the violence, or " trying to take control"?  All they've done so far is join the protesters who already numbered in the hundreds of thousands.  Military rule is not necessary to keep them out of power; indeed, it's likely the military will rely on the brotherhood if it does take over.   

[MicroBalrog]

The supremacy of a culture doesn't depend on how many B students you have; it depends on how many creative people you have in the top one-tenth of one per cent.

Nonsense.

Look at Russia. Piles of awesome inventors, creative artists, etc. Yet it consistently lacks the ability to mass-produce their awesome inventions. Sikorski, Koshkin, Kalashnikov, Dragunov, Margolin. And yet  observe the state of Russian industry.

Geniuses are not enough. You need hundreds of thousands of B-average students and the ability to organize their effort right. It is that latter part in which the Socialists failed utterly.

[longeyes]

Nonsense.

Look at Russia. Piles of awesome inventors, creative artists, etc. Yet it consistently lacks the ability to mass-produce their awesome inventions. Sikorski, Koshkin, Kalashnikov, Dragunov, Margolin. And yet  observe the state of Russian industry.

Geniuses are not enough. You need hundreds of thousands of B-average students and the ability to organize their effort right. It is that latter part in which the Socialists failed utterly.

Uh-huh.  You want to name some of the great innovations and innovators that have changed the world in recent times that have come out of Russia. 

I realize this is a gun forum, but you'll have to do better than Kalashnikov, Dragunov, and Simonov.

My point is not that the general state of intelligence and competence and organization don't matter, it's that the game-changing and culture-changing science and technology originates with the highly superior and exceptional.

[makattak]

My point is not that the general state of intelligence and competence and organization don't matter, it's that the game-changing and culture-changing science and technology originates with the highly superior and exceptional.

No, you're wrong too. (I'm implying Micro is wrong as well.)

Geniuses will exist in every state of man. Genius is a given.

What doesn't exist is incentive to pursue that genius. A centrally planned economy will try to find those geniuses and exploit them for their own purposes. Because a centrally planned economy is incapable of having the knowledge as to those geniuses "best" use, they will be directed and encouraged to the preferred aims of the leaders of that society. (Which is why so many of the Russian geniuses were dealing with weapons.)

Geniuses in a free society are free to invent, think and fail on their own. Others will find ways to use their genius to supply a need or want in that society. As such, we'll get genius in areas not directed by the central authority, leading to advances in areas not even dreamed previously.

The answer isn't people organizing efforts towards production (we don't need even C or D students for that, we barely need literacy for that, and our factories in Asian countries will bear that out) nor is it having the smartest or the brightest. The smartest and the brightest will exist as a matter of random chance. What we need is freedom to pursue genius in whatever areas it exists.

What we everyone needs is less government interference.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Uh-huh.  You want to name some of the great innovations and innovators that have changed the world in recent times that have come out of Russia. 

I realize this is a gun forum, but you'll have to do better than Kalashnikov, Dragunov, and Simonov.

My point is not that the general state of intelligence and competence and organization don't matter, it's that the game-changing and culture-changing science and technology originates with the highly superior and exceptional.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Russian_inventors

[roo_ster]

Any reason why the Jordanians or Syrians or Egyptians won't take the Palestinians? Could these countries have been directing all the hatred toward Israel to avoid having the Palestinians move into their countries?

They already have Palis in them that they have refused to settle and accept for decades.  So much for Arab & Muslim hospitality.

The Palestinians don't want to be expelled from their own country - they view that as ethnic cleansing, the project of expelling Arabs and leaving only Jews.

OTOH, the Arabs are quite good at ethnically cleansing the Jews from majority Arab countries.  Which Israel has accepted & settled.

The Palis are a despicable lot, about the most unsympathetic group on the planet, despite some real grievances.  If it weren't for self-hating westerners, they would have been chewed up and spit out on the side of the road.

[roo_ster]

You should read how nervous their government is about this in the press-but you are right that they will see it as a surprise.  So did Mubarak and bin Ali.  This is what happens when your foreign policy depends on dictatorships and force, rather than consensus.

Truly, this is bilge water.

Who else was Israel (or anyone dealing with the ME) going to deal with?  I seem to have missed all the middle eastern tolerant & liberal republics that ruled by the consent of the governed before the Jews came and ruined it all.

Dictatorship is what existed then, what exists now, and what will exist for the foreseeable future in the ME.  The best that can be hoped for in the latest round of ME unrest is a slightly less repressive dictatorship.  There is no tradition of tolerance and liberality in the ME and the benighted & hateful dirt-scrabbling rabble would no more know what to do with it than a swine would know what to do with a Blackberry.

"Consensus," indeed.  

"Offering democracy to an Arab is like bringing a horse to a steakhouse."
----Jeff Cooper

[roo_ster]

I always find it funny that, apart from economies that were already advanced, the communist satellites generally blow the competition out of the water.  They had better education, better medicine, and better security than any of the third world countries that adopted free market policies in the 80s.  But I guess all that pales in comparison to the economic freedoms enjoyed by Latin American peasants.

Geeze Louise, what willful blindness is fostered in the academy!

Most communist satellites were European.  The others you compare them to are African and majority Amerindian.

Here in America we have a vision of eastern Europe as a dark & backward place, even before the communists ground them down.  But, that is relative to the West.  A comparison of the development, cultural & human capital to Africa & latin America shows E Europe has a huge advantage.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i would add this to roosters post
the Arabs are quite good at ethnically cleansing the Jews the palestinians from majority Arab countries.  other than to do menial labor

[longeyes]

No, you're wrong too. (I'm implying Micro is wrong as well.)

Geniuses will exist in every state of man. Genius is a given.

What doesn't exist is incentive to pursue that genius. A centrally planned economy will try to find those geniuses and exploit them for their own purposes. Because a centrally planned economy is incapable of having the knowledge as to those geniuses "best" use, they will be directed and encouraged to the preferred aims of the leaders of that society. (Which is why so many of the Russian geniuses were dealing with weapons.)

Geniuses in a free society are free to invent, think and fail on their own. Others will find ways to use their genius to supply a need or want in that society. As such, we'll get genius in areas not directed by the central authority, leading to advances in areas not even dreamed previously.

The answer isn't people organizing efforts towards production (we don't need even C or D students for that, we barely need literacy for that, and our factories in Asian countries will bear that out) nor is it having the smartest or the brightest. The smartest and the brightest will exist as a matter of random chance. What we need is freedom to pursue genius in whatever areas it exists.

What we everyone needs is less government interference.

Of course, we need less government interference.  But to believe that the smartest and brightest exist, as you say, as a matter of random choice is, frankly, absurd.  If you look at the people who created, for example, the Industrial Revolution you will notice that those most responsible are from only a few cultures and are comparatively few in number.

[longeyes]

Cassandra, I don't need to look at Wikipedia to find Russian inventors.  I already know, from rumor, that the Russians invented everything. 

[MicroBalrog]

"Offering democracy to an Arab is like bringing a horse to a steakhouse."
----Jeff Cooper

Did you see the link I posted in the other thread?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World_%28report%29

In the past 40 years, democracies have appeared in various places in the world where they wouldn't have been thought possible. There's even some in Africa. They may be crappy by the standard of Western Europe, but they're better than many things European history had known. There's no such thing as a nation of people incapable of, or undeserving of, freedom.

All men. Are endowed by their Creator.

[roo_ster]

Did you see the link I posted in the other thread?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World_%28report%29

In the past 40 years, democracies have appeared in various places in the world where they wouldn't have been thought possible. There's even some in Africa. They may be crappy by the standard of Western Europe, but they're better than many things European history had known. There's no such thing as a nation of people incapable of, or undeserving of, freedom.

All men. Are endowed by their Creator.

I saw the link.

It showed no arab countries as free.

Jeff Cooper's point stands.

[MicroBalrog]

So in your view, Africans can have freedom - Indonesian Muslims can have freedom - Latin Americans can have freedom - Germans can have freedom - and yet Arabs cannot?

What is magically wrong with Arabs that makes it impossible?