Pirates Hijack Sailboat with Children on Board

[Ben]

More news. If accurate, I revise my statement about the family not having any blame. According to the article, their log states that they knew the danger but believed they would be protected by the UN patrols.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/02/pirated-danish-yacht-family-anchor-near-somalia/?test=latestnews

[KD5NRH]

More news. If accurate, I revise my statement about the family not having any blame. According to the article, their log states that they knew the danger but believed they would be protected by the UN patrols.

I seem to recall that not that long ago, the danger zone was within about 60 miles of the Somali coast.  Then it was 150.  Then anywhere in the Gulf of Aden.  Will they have to start taking ships along the Hudson before people stop blaming the victims?

[Ben]

I seem to recall that not that long ago, the danger zone was within about 60 miles of the Somali coast.  Then it was 150.  Then anywhere in the Gulf of Aden.  Will they have to start taking ships along the Hudson before people stop blaming the victims?

If you see my previous posts in this thread, I generally don't blame the victim, but in this case, if information is accurate, I question their situational awareness.

Revdisk said it best in a thread on another subject. A woman in a bikini stuffed full of hundred dollar bills should be able to walk anywhere in the world unmolested. The prudent woman knows that though she should be able to, there are some areas where it's just not a good idea.

I am all for extreme lethal force against the pirate fleet. Until international forces choose to do that, individuals need to make prudent decisions, whether it means not going to an area or making the decision to break laws and go to an area armed in order to protect themselves.

[AZRedhawk44]

Weren't shotguns fairly common on private seagoing vessels at one time, and more or less ignored as long as they stay on the boat while in port?

I was just thinking; my 835 with a modified choke on a 28" ported barrel puts 4 pellets of an 18 pellet 3.5" magnum 00 load on an IDPA target at 100yds with enough force to punch 1" into pine.  Targets flanking that one get 2-3 pellets each, and the gun holds 4+1 of those without an extension.  Three of those rapid firing from concealment when the pirates are ~75 yards out might not be a major bloodbath, but it should dramatically reduce their combat effectiveness. (at least to the point of making it hard to aim an RPG - concealment and suppressive shotgun fire makes aimed return fire with rifles difficult) Add in one with a slug barrel aiming for their waterline when they're days from a friendly port and you ought to be able to convince them to look for easier pickings.

That RPG can hit you from 600+ yards away.

The AK's can hit you from 400+ yards away.

Your shotgun is worthless even against their fiberglass hull (let alone if it's steel or aluminum) past 200 yards.

The drop of a slug is so severe at 200+ yards that you couldn't put a slug within 3 feet of the waterline of a vessel.  You'd have more luck with an old black powder mortar or cannon.

To fend of pirates, you need at minimum, a belt fed .30 caliber and the skill to use it to 500 yards minimum.  Ideally, to 900+ yards and outside of RPG distance.  At that distance, bullets will be more "falling" and less "cruising" through the air.  You're more likely to pierce the bottom of the boat than the waterline of the hull.  147gr .308 bullets drop about 850 inches from the muzzle at 1000 yards.  More than 70 feet.  With a 200 yard zero, you have to aim 790 inches above the target.  And it's gonna drop from 2750fps at the muzzle to a mere 750fps at 1000 yards.  That's with a 147gr FMJ .308 bullet with sectional density of 0.221.  

The larger your ship is, the better the odds are in favor of the pirates.  RPG accuracy matters less when your ship is 100 yards long and 20 yards tall at the water line.  Their boats are faster and more maneuverable than yours, so you can't outrun them.  You then have to carry more ammo to fend them off longer while you await response to your emergency SOS radio call.

[tokugawa]

I seem to recall that not that long ago, the danger zone was within about 60 miles of the Somali coast.  Then it was 150.  Then anywhere in the Gulf of Aden.  Will they have to start taking ships along the Hudson before people stop blaming the victims?

Yes, this is a pertinent point- IIRC, the pirates we were engaged against some 200 years ago were based in North Africa, but their depredations extended far beyond the Med.  If their operations incur no cost, we can expect them to travel as needed, especially as the idiots paying ransom are funding better boats, better, weapons, better provisioning , better intel aqnd better bribery.

[KD5NRH]

That RPG can hit you from 600+ yards away.

The AK's can hit you from 400+ yards away.

If they just want to trash the ship and kill potential hostages, you're screwed anyway.  Let them get within 50-75 yards without resistance, and then open up on them without warning or mercy.

At any rate, it beats the hell out of being taken prisoner and executed without a fight.

[Pharmacology]

Why hasn't Blackwater or another private company jumped on this?

I see a huge market for them with the tankers and companies that pay out millions for ransom

EDIT:


And that's another thing:  where are those millions of dollars going?  There has to be someone at the top, who probably wouldn't be that hard to convince to stop.

[HankB]

Exactly; it's like saying that people in Green Bay should expect random attacks from the criminals in Trenton NJ, or that our Austin residents should worry because of the crime rate in El Paso.

Except that some of us living in the greater Austin area aren't defenseless.  

[roo_ster]

WRT RPG7 Phits:

Code: [Select]

RPG7 vs 5m x 2.5m tgt moving at 9mph
(From Wikipedia and/or other open sources)
Range (m) Phit
50 100%
100 96%
200 51%
300 22%
400 9%
500 4%

This was done with US Army infantry personnel.

Toss in sea conditions, a moving pirate vessel, & Somali pirate gunnery, and I think an RPG7 is a 200m weapon against any of the usual non-commercial vessels.

[MicroBalrog]

That RPG can hit you from 600+ yards away.

Maybe in theory. The Russian Army junior officer's manual advises not setting engagement ranges for RPG gunners beyond about 400 yards, and preferably lower.

[MicroBalrog]

As for sea conditions, the RPG-7 is affected by crosswinds.

Here's footage of Russian infantry shooting the RPG-7 in heavy wind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKxEbmPsTO0

You can easily them missing the target due to the crosswind.

[never_retreat]

This just in.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/03/armed-guards-retake-dutch-boat-somali-pirates/?test=latestnews

[Pharmacology]

awesome news!

I wonder what the guards were armed with / arrived in

[MicroBalrog]

Sadly, we may have to take the same approach that the Israelis do with hostages.  That they are as good as dead. 

I demand to be acquainted with these magical Israelis. Do they come from the same Israel where every man, woman, and child is armed to the teeth and airport security is extremely tough, while completely non-invasive?

[Boomhauer]

I demand to be acquainted with these magical Israelis. Do they come from the same Israel where every man, woman, and child is armed to the teeth and airport security is extremely tough, while completely non-invasive?

Duh, Micro. That's the other Israel. The one with kosher unicorns.

[RoadKingLarry]

Duh, Micro. That's the other Israel. The one with kosher bacon.

??
 

[sanglant]

i don't have a lake to test this on, so i'll ask. won't slugs skip? you know like a rock. maybe that would take balls instead of slugs. might have to go 8GA to have enough mass.

[Scout26]

I demand to be acquainted with these magical Israelis. Do they come from the same Israel where every man, woman, and child is armed to the teeth and airport security is extremely tough, while completely non-invasive?

IIRC, that is the attitude of the Israeli .gov.  That's one reason why Israeli's aren't taken hostage very often.  The Israeli .gov presumes that the hostages will be killed either before or possibly during th rescue attempt.

[KD5NRH]

The Israeli .gov presumes that the hostages will be killed either before or possibly during th rescue attempt.

Seems a bit pessimistic, considering their relatively successful experience at Entebbe.

[MicroBalrog]

IIRC, that is the attitude of the Israeli .gov.  That's one reason why Israeli's aren't taken hostage very often.  The Israeli .gov presumes that the hostages will be killed either before or possibly during th rescue attempt.

This is demonstrably not true. The Israeli government negotiates with terrorists, and willingly trades hundreds of terrorist inmates to be released in exchange for hostages or even their bodies.

For exaple:

On 30 September 2009, Israel announced that it would release twenty female Palestinian detainees and prisoners in exchange for a video proving Shalit was still alive.

The trade took place successfully on 2 October. 19 of the 20 Palestinian captives were released; the last one was released one day later. The video, the only contact from Shalit other than three letters written by him and an audio tape released in June 2007, was released to the public at around 4:00 in the afternoon on Israeli television.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit#Negotiations_for_release

Hezbollah released the remains of two captured Israeli soldiers Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev,[1] in exchange for Palestine Liberation Front militant Samir Kuntar, who was convicted of murder in Israel, four Hezbollah militants, and bodies of about 200 other Lebanese and Palestinian militants captured by Israel.[2] The Prime Minister of Israel, Ehud Olmert, stated that Israel agreed to swap five prisoners with Hezbollah to provide the bodies of two Israeli soldiers captured in 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Israel-Hezbollah_prisoner_swap

In this latter case it is notable that military rabbis refused to formally pronounce the men dead in absence of bodies, and Hezbullah refused to admit they were dead until the day of the handover. People were still holding out hope when the coffins crossed the border.

There was also this individual:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elhanan_Tannenbaum#Prisoner_exchange

In short, Israel has made a history not merely negotiating with terrorists, but haggling shamefully with them and acceding to their obscene demands.

[MicroBalrog]

Other examples of this behavior:

As part of the agreement, Israel released 1,150 security prisoners held in Israeli prisons in exchange for three Israeli prisoners (Yosef Grof, Nissim Salem, Hezi Shai) captured during the First Lebanon War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jibril_Agreement

[Jamisjockey]

IIRC, that is the attitude of the Israeli .gov.  That's one reason why Israeli's aren't taken hostage very often.  The Israeli .gov presumes that the hostages will be killed either before or possibly during th rescue attempt.

I think I heard that exact same thing at a gun show or something.   

[grislyatoms]

Rig out a handful of Q ships, to include pleasure yachts, and throw the pirates some surprise parties.

 

[KD5NRH]

Rig out a handful of Q ships, to include pleasure yachts, and throw the pirates some surprise parties.

I was thinking someone should buy up derelict yachts and small submarines; clean up the yachts on the outside and rig them with explosives to make something along the lines of giant seagoing claymore mines.  Sail them out to the right area and evac to the submarine.  Detonate when the pirates are alongside.

[Viking]

I was thinking someone should buy up derelict yachts and small submarines; clean up the yachts on the outside and rig them with explosives to make something along the lines of giant seagoing claymore mines.  Sail them out to the right area and evac to the submarine.  Detonate when the pirates are alongside.

Ooooh, I like how you're thinking .