Eric garner verdict

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

It's a chokehold.   His arm is across his throat.  What would you call it ??  What do you think it is ??



Here's what my former Platoon Sergeant* posted on his FB wall:  

And then this:

And finally this:



*-Active Duty 1969- 1993, Vietnam, Drill Sergeant and instructor at the MP School, Squad Leader, Platoon Sergeant, and First Sergeant in MP Companies before retiring.

P.S.  He must be anti-cop also....

Yep. He's anti cop. I like his opinions. Wonder where I've heard them before

[Jamisjockey]

That forearm across the windpipe doe.  I'd like to see the cornoers report....

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Two reports so far. Prelim said no throat damage final said neck compression contributed. I'd like to see report and any coroner testimony. They dud the press the head into the pavement and that is a real awkward one. I also wanna see tox and find out why it's hidden so far. Reminds me if mike browns juv record being concealed


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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Found this. http://www.silive.com/northshore/index.ssf/2014/08/report_chokehold_victim_eric_g.html


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[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

Found this. Interesting perspective

http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/eric-garner-grand-jury-rigged-man-filmed-chokehold-article-1.2033257#bmb=1

[Scout26]

I like paragraph 2

Paragraph 3?
Interpersonal communications.... Did that gentleman always play with folks in the military? How nice for him. It may come as a shock to you both that there exists a sub culture that operates at an entirely different level. But it did sound nice.


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How foolish of me.  Of course none of that "sub-culture" ever enlisted in the Army.  Why we never had any of the most physically fit 18-21 year old males of all colors come back after spending a a couple months in the field doing a Graf-Hohenfels rotation or maybe a CARAVAN GUARD or REFORGER, then head over the one of the Clubs or the Metropol downtown, get totally blasted and then pissed off because there were 12-15 soldiers for every available female.

No, we never ever had to deal with belligerent drunks who also happened to be in excellent physical condition.   Nor did they ever band together in groups, willing to take on all comers.

So yes, our training and experiences mean naught.

[/sarcasm]

[Scout26]

Oh, and just so we have full disclosure and can compare notes, exactly how many arrests have you "participated" in?

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

Scout

When were you there?  Graf Hohenfels Bayreuth Vilseck 1988-93

And yes I agree. Civilian Police can't hold a candle to MP training.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Oh, and just so we have full disclosure and can compare notes, exactly how many arrests have you "participated" in?

Arrests? 56 or 57. 5 by mp's
" detained" ? Just over 200
My perspective was very different from this side of the cuffs than yours.
First times were under the gentle auspices of the pg county md cops.



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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

How foolish of me.  Of course none of that "sub-culture" ever enlisted in the Army.  Why we never had any of the most physically fit 18-21 year old males of all colors come back after spending a a couple months in the field doing a Graf-Hohenfels rotation or maybe a CARAVAN GUARD or REFORGER, then head over the one of the Clubs or the Metropol downtown, get totally blasted and then pissed off because there were 12-15 soldiers for every available female.

No, we never ever had to deal with belligerent drunks who also happened to be in excellent physical condition.   Nor did they ever band together in groups, willing to take on all comers.

So yes, our training and experiences mean naught.

[/sarcasm]

The real members could never get in the service
Been in some of those bars where guys grouped up to takedown all comers interesting to compare it with the hood but it's not even close. You'd get closer if you went to a biker bar but there is a level of dilligaf in the hood that's been percolating for decades. You ever go to base housing have a crowd surround you? Kids yelling how they wanted to kill you? Throwing stuff? How often did you take guns off the boys you arrested? And in all the times I saw. Mp's show up for shtf they were enmasse clubs out. Been quite a while though are mp's still allowed to do stick time ! Or are they as restricted as civvie cops are nowadays. Do they do taser ?

And how often did they shoot or stab you? Or try?
How many military cops are there total? I know the number killed in the line of is fairly low and breaks down similarly to civvie cops. Auto accidents is number one

And as you observed it's pretty safe. Safer than many other mos
http://www.odmp.org/agency/3943-united-states-army-military-police-corps-us-government


Edited to improve acronym accuracy

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[wmenorr67]

I know that in our combatives that we take in the military, think MMA ultra-light, we are taught "choke" holds.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Even nypd has a note in their policy that allows them as a last resort though in this case I think the cop had him originally in a head lock that went under the chin as he hung on riding him to the ground. In the 7 seconds from him grabbing him around the head and by the shoulder to when he mounted him and pushed down on the back of his head with his hand I don't think he had enough time to have choked him. Apparently neither did the grand jury. They gave the other cops there immunity to encourage them to testify against him and there was a sgts there in command of the whole incident. And the commands get was a black female .

This is very reminiscent of that poor sob who croaked out in the movie theatre parking lot. The one whose wife made a lot of allegations that did not survive the reality of the video. They did finally release the parking lot cam tapes and you will notice her and the tile crawler have gone away. They also did not support her.


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[dogmush]

Two things:

The hold being used in the picture Scout posted IS a choke hold.  Specifically, a poorly applied "Clasped hands" variation of a rear naked choke. That variation is very likely to cause airway impingement and is not really recommended for use unless you're trying to kill someone. (Army combative or some such).  Whether or not the officer started with a head control lock (as CSD's picture shows) by the time he hit the ground he had transitioned to a choke.  Not just holding on...actually transitioned his hands to a choke.  The clasping of the hands gives that away.

Second:

You'd get closer if you went to a biker bar but there is a level of dillygaf in the hood that's been percolating for decades

Do I Look Like Yorkies Give A *expletive deleted*ck?  WTH?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Look closer at the hold. Try here
http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/GTY_eric_garner2_ml_140722_16x9_992.jpg

and then listen to the video for a hoot. Especially about a minute in
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/eric-garner-grand-jury-rigged-man-filmed-chokehold-article-1.2033257


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[Jamisjockey]

Not sure why we argue with him at all.

[dogmush]

Look closer at the hold. Try here
http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/GTY_eric_garner2_ml_140722_16x9_992.jpg

and then listen to the video for a hoot. Especially about a minute in
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/eric-garner-grand-jury-rigged-man-filmed-chokehold-article-1.2033257


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I stand by my statement. The officer with the 99 on his shirt started with a head and upper body control move (at about 1:17) rode the guy to the ground, then at about 1:28 had shifted to a badly applied choke.  The clasped hands and buried forearm are the indicators of the transition. By 1:32 he had full locked in the choke and started to roll the guy on to his face.  That's what happened, pretty clearly, in the video.  Argue it all you like.

I'd guess the GJ didn't indict because after a LEO tells you you're being placed under arrest, if you do anything other then cooperate, it's resisting and the results and escalation of force are on you.  That's also why we have criminals charged for people the police shot.  That's probably the attitude we need to be looking at.

[onions!]

Not sure why we argue with him at all.

Because if there were no opposition there'd be no reason to exist.
or
If people didn't like to argue they wouldn't do it.
or
If you don't like broccoli don't eat it.

[roo_ster]

1. Really not willing to wade through this one too deep.  Done it enough times to get depressed by the very thought.

2. That said, I am somewhat loath to get overly analytical regarding a hand-to-hand altercation that looks like such a goat rodeo.  Training, policy, whatever, in a scrum like that is going to be neither Marquis of Queensbury nor 100% IAW policy when some LEOs, who might not ought to be on the street are holding on.  Veteran LEOs at several times the salary in the USA just are not up to maintaining ROE the way E-1s just out of high school manage to do in places like Iraq & Afghanistan.

3. Arresting someone for selling individual cigarettes?  Really? 

4. The simple fact that LEOs are willing to throw down and arrest folk for such a chicken-*expletive deleted*it infraction on nobody's safety, liberty, or property is the much greater condemnation of the individual LEOs involved than screwing the pooch and killing the misdemeanor-er with a choke hold.  If LEOs are willing to arrest and kill citizens to keep folk from selling single cigarettes, they will be willing to kill citizens for any reason, no matter how minor, unjust, or unconstitutional.  Really ought to keep a database of such folk to keep an eye on them.

[vaskidmark]

I've been spending time over here http://www.forcescience.org/fs-news.html looking at info on Excited Delerium Syndrome (EDS).

Claiming to be not an expert, there seem to be several indicators that Garner may have been in an EDS state.  My that's-strange-o-meter started giggling as soon as I saw the explosive reaction he displays as soon as the cop steps towards him.  That meter giggled a bit more with each new bit of info that surfaced.  Right now it's hovering at 2/2-3/4 towards EDS.

Comments?  Questions?  Am I the only one who has ever heard of EDS?

stay safe.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I had heard about it used to explain folks croaking inexplicably. I always thought you had to be high or having a psychotic episode but apparently not.

In garners case my understanding is he was not intoxicated


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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I stand by my statement. The officer with the 99 on his shirt started with a head and upper body control move (at about 1:17) rode the guy to the ground, then at about 1:28 had shifted to a badly applied choke.  The clasped hands and buried forearm are the indicators of the transition. By 1:32 he had full locked in the choke and started to roll the guy on to his face.  That's what happened, pretty clearly, in the video.  Argue it all you like.

I'd guess the GJ didn't indict because after a LEO tells you you're being placed under arrest, if you do anything other then cooperate, it's resisting and the results and escalation of force are on you.  That's also why we have criminals charged for people the police shot.  That's probably the attitude we need to be looking at.

That's less time than I got . That said 5 seconds of arm across throat isn't gonna croak you. Especially give he was telling them he couldn't breath when arm was gone and he was being pressed into sidewalk. And especially since his throat was not damaged.
Do corners there just look at the corpse? Or do a more complete report that tries to incorporate the physical evidence with the witness reports?


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[KD5NRH]

3. Arresting someone for selling individual cigarettes?  Really?

Pretty much my take on it.  If the state must have its pound of flesh, then write him a ticket.  If you have to serve a warrant on him later because he doesn't pay, then a) it's the court's decision that he needs to go to jail, not the officer's and b) the arrest is for failure to appear, not for a pathetic little infraction.

[onions!]

Pretty much my take on it.  If the state must have its pound of flesh, then write him a ticket.  If you have to serve a warrant on him later because he doesn't pay, then a) it's the court's decision that he needs to go to jail, not the officer's and b) the arrest is for failure to appear, not for a pathetic little infraction.

Agreed 100%
If they actually had to subdue him I'd of been fine with tasing him,cuffing him when he stopped flopping,and calling an ambulance.

" If LEOs are willing to arrest and kill citizens to keep folk from selling single cigarettes, they will be willing to kill citizens for any reason, no matter how minor, unjust, or unconstitutional."
^^This,times eleventy.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

From someone's Facebook
Thanks
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/12/03/actual-facts-Eric-Garner


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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Agreed 100%
If they actually had to subdue him I'd of been fine with tasing him,cuffing him when he stopped flopping,and calling an ambulance.

" If LEOs are willing to arrest and kill citizens to keep folk from selling single cigarettes, they will be willing to kill citizens for any reason, no matter how minor, unjust, or unconstitutional."
^^This,times eleventy.

Nypd doesn't give tasers to everyone too concerned how it looks might offend someone's sensibilities


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