Titanic tourist sub goes missing

[230RN]

If my math is right (questionable), pressure at 6000 ft would be would be about 181 bar (2650 psi). That's a lotta squeeze.

Brad

I previously mentioned that the pressure at Titanic's depth was about 800 atmospheres.

I recollect a photo of a string strung from wall to wall inside a sub getting slack as the hull got squooshed by the water pressure.

I know there are some submariners on this board, but tell ya true, I'd get pretty spooked about riding in any sub.

I was going to add in my Meteor Crater remarks that I didn't have to view it locked in my car looking out my windshield with only 100 or so cubic feet of air.

And someone's remarks about watching a game on handhelds while sitting in $75K seats kind of made my point.  I'm just not into bragging rights although I can certainly appreciate the after-game partying with friends. If I could say I walked along the Great Wall of China, what about me would be enhanced? Or would I still just be the ordinary pain in the ass shnook I am?



I'm the tall guy at the top of the picture.  I got there a little late.

Terry, 230RN

Pic credit in properties

[WLJ]

Wait a minute, WTH does Rolling Stone have access to US Department of Homeland Security e-mails?

[WLJ]

CNN now reporting on the banging sounds.

[BobR]

I recollect a photo of a string strung from wall to wall inside a sub getting slack as the hull got squooshed by the water pressure.

I know there are some submariners on this board, but tell ya true, I'd get pretty spooked about riding in any sub.

Even though there are many more airplanes in the sea vs submarines in the air I was much happier searching for the subs from the air. I was offered a 7 day excursion on a sub out of Point Loma, kind of a personnel exchange. Submariners came with us and some of us went with them, I politely declined.

bob

[RoadKingLarry]

I recollect a photo of a string strung from wall to wall inside a sub getting slack as the hull got squooshed by the water pressure.

A experiment/demonstration I have witnessed with my own eyes.
Did it in the torpedo room as it was the most open space forward of the engineering spaces (nuke land).
Used about a 25' length of paracord tied off to brackets mounted on hull frames.
Went from taught at periscope depth to about an 8" sag at test depth.
The fun part is performing an "emergency blow" from test depth.
THAT is a *expletive deleted*ing ride!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOqalX5FJ2c

[230RN]

The pressure required to blow the submersion tanks (sorry if incorrect nomenclature) in a regular submarine has to be greater than the water pressure at that depth, right?
 
Otherwise, the air won't force out the water to increase the sub's buouyancy, right?

So the pressure reservoir must carry enough air at high enough pressure to empty the submersion (ballast?) tanks.

At 380 atmospheres for the Titanic sub, that's a hell of a lot of air at a hell of a high pressure.

Does anyone know if it could surface by blowing ballast tanks (unlikely), or was it strictly maneuverable up-and-down by diving planes?  If so, a stoppage of the motive power would disable diving planes and would leave it stuck wherever it was when the motive power quit.... right?

Terry, 230RN

[Hawkmoon]

The fun part is performing an "emergency blow" from test depth.
THAT is a *expletive deleted*ing ride!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOqalX5FJ2c

Heh, heh ... they used that clip toward the end of the submarine comedy film Down Periscope.

[Hawkmoon]

The pressure required to blow the submersion tanks (sorry if incorrect nomenclature) has to be greater than the water pressure at that depth, right?
 
Otherwise, the air won't force out the water to increase the sub's buouyancy, right?

So the pressure reservoir must carry enough air at high enough pressure to empty the submersion (ballast?) tanks.

At 800 atmospheres for the Titanic sub, that's a hell of a lot of air at a hell of a high pressure.

Does anyone know if it could surface by blowing ballast tanks, or was it strictly maneuverable up-and-down by diving planes?  If so, a stoppage of the motive power would disable diving planes and would leave it stuck wherever it was when the motive power quit.... right?

(Gruesome thought:  I wonder if they killed the CEO to conserve air.)

Terry, 230RN

If you're referring to the lost submersible, it's maximum sped is (was) 2 knots. From the photos, it appeared to me that propulsion and lift were provided by small thruster propellers mounted to the outside of the hull.

[Hawkmoon]

My understanding is it was carbon wrapped titanium.

Otherwise, spot on.

I thought the nose dome was titanium and the main hull cylinder was all carbon-fiber.

[230RN]

If you're referring to the lost submersible, it's maximum sped is (was) 2 knots. From the photos, it appeared to me that propulsion and lift were provided by small thruster propellers mounted to the outside of the hull.

Yes, the "Titanic sub," and thank you for the outside propeller information.  So if either the main battery or the "joystick" quit, that was it.

Sounds like another case of too much theory and not enough engineering.

Terry, 230RN

[WLJ]

Haven't seen any updates on the banging story.

Is the story actually confirmed? Rolling Stones is the source?
If true how long have they heard the sounds.
Are they occurring every 30 minutes on the money, which would generally rule out something natural, or not

[Ben]

The Titanic sub has ballast weights, so it doesn't have to blow tanks in an emergency.

As for the "hammering", I think they heard something else. If the occupants were alive to hammer, they would be alive to use comms or deploy the emergency beacon. Of course this is predicated on a submersible that was built with an ounce of thought. It's beginning to sound like this contraption is the equivalent of the guy with the lawn chair and the helium balloons.

Also on the hammering:

https://youtu.be/Hvjt0VAk_48?t=2516

[HankB]

Even though there are many more airplanes in the sea vs submarines in the air I was much happier searching for the subs from the air. I was offered a 7 day excursion on a sub out of Point Loma, kind of a personnel exchange. Submariners came with us and some of us went with them, I politely declined.

bob

When I was in Hawaii (Business conference on the Big Island) I took a brief excursion on a tourist sub - think of a bus with a long row of portholes along the sides and a big dome at the end. IIRC the sub dove to around 100 - 125 feet and we saw some fish. That was my sole sub experience. I think this was it:  https://www.hawaiitours.com/to-do/submarine-dive/

Someone asked the tour guide how deep the sub could safely dive, and she said 1200 feet. I'm very skeptical about that, but since we weren't putting it to the test that day, I didn't argue.

[WLJ]

IF the banging sound story is true.

If they lost power that would explain the lack of comms/pings among other things.
BUT, if they lost power why didn't they then abort and drop the emergency ascend weights which isn't suppose to require power to do. This is assuming it was actually installed and/or worked, and/or someone on board actually knew how to work the darn thing. From what I'm reading on how this thing was Jerry-Rigged together I'm having doubts on all three.

Edit: Of course this all assuming they didn't implode on the way down as an explanation

[Ben]

If they lost power that would explain the lack of comms.

If built with an ounce of brainpower, there would be backup power for comms/transponder. In fact the transponder(s) would have an independent power source.

[WLJ]

If built with an ounce of brainpower, there would be backup power for comms/transponder. In fact the transponder(s) would have an independent power source.

You would think.

Okay, first confirmation I seen about them hearing something I halfway trust. Still doesn't prove it's from the lost sub.

Coast Guard has shared information about banging noises with Navy, commander says
https://www.cnn.com/americas/live-news/titanic-missing-sub-oceangate-06-21-23

[WLJ]

It's republican billionaire Elon Musk fault and an an investigation should be launched.

Yeah.....

"@OccupyDemocrats

BREAKING: Republican billionaire Elon Musk is thrust into another nightmare PR disaster as it's revealed that the missing Titanic submersible company previously praised his satellite communication company Starlink — and said that it would be "relying on" the service to "provide the communications" for the Titanic Expedition.   The world lost all communication with the submersible and its crew shortly after it began its journey towards the sunken wreck.    A massive search-and-rescue effort is currently underway but prospects look grimmer by the hour. The crew has limited oxygen and cannot exit the craft without outside help.   It must be stated that at this point there is no direct indication that Starlink failed or was the cause of this terrifying and possibly tragic incident. That said, given Musk's long history of screwups and reckless dishonesty, an investigation should be launched.   RT and  if you demand an investigation — and consider investing in Tribel, a “woke” new Twitter competitor that is currently doing a round of equity crowdfunding and just blew past $1.4 million raised from 3,600 of its users. If you want to own a small piece of what is quickly becoming the “next big thing” in social media, here is the link to do so, http://wefunder.com/Tribel. You can invest as little as $100 — or as much as you’d like. Here’s the link to download the new Tribel app that Elon Musk is so afraid of: http://tribel.app.link/okwPIHYCIqb"

Excuse me while go found something stronger to put in my morning coffee

@OccupyDemocrats get rightfully dragged for ghoulish attempt to tie Elon Musk to missing Titanic sub
https://twitchy.com/amy/2023/06/20/occupydemocrats-gets-community-noted-for-ridiculous-attempt-to-tie-elon-musk-to-missing-submersible-n2384685

[Brad Johnson]

BUT, if they lost power why didn't they then abort and drop the emergency ascend weights which isn't suppose to require power to do.

I would presume the e-ascend weights would be magnetically tethered. That way, they release automatically if power fails. If not all weights, then at least enough to achieve some amount of non-overridable positive buoyancy.

Brad

[WLJ]

I would presume the e-ascend weights would be magnetically tethered. That way, they release automatically if power fails. If not all weights, then at least enough to achieve some amount of non-overridable positive buoyancy.

Brad

I've seen mention of magnetic releases, hydraulic cable cutters, and simple latch release handles. Not sure which system the Titan has/had

[Boomhauer]

Even if they are alive the chance is still slim of getting them…if they even find them in time

[WLJ]

From BBC news

As usual take with a internet size grain of salt

Submarine search and rescue expert Frank Owen told BBC News on Wednesday morning that “banging sounds” that have been detected by floating sonobuoys in the search could suggest the Titan could be at the surface.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6492dff71babaa614a472d30%26What%20happens%20if%20sub%20reaches%20the%20surface%3F%262023-06-21T13%3A12%3A06.031Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:4aacfe40-5f8e-41d7-b44e-9f0f40158902&pinned_post_asset_id=6492dff71babaa614a472d30&pinned_post_type=share

[dogmush]

Does anyone know if it could surface by blowing ballast tanks (unlikely), or was it strictly maneuverable up-and-down by diving planes?  If so, a stoppage of the motive power would disable diving planes and would leave it stuck wherever it was when the motive power quit.... right?

Terry, 230RN

Generally speaking submersibles (as apposed to submarines) do not use ballast tanks with variable seawater volumes to adjust buoyancy.  That system is used on submarines, because they are self sufficient, and have a lot more variables that effect buoyancy, and so need a more adjustable system.  Submarines also don't travel at the depths where they would need 10k psi of air to blow the tanks.

Submersibles, on the other hand, are short duration vehicles that require surface support, and can dial their weight in for the load and water conditions each dive, and need less adjustability.  In general (specific details on the Titan are hard to find) submersibles will be ballasted so as to be neutral, or very slightly buoyant at the target depth of the dive.  This will put them at slightly more buoyant during the decent/ascent (because they are slightly bigger at the surface and displace more water).  They will use their vertical thrusters to overcome this and descend and to hold them at depth.  This is done so that if they DO lose all power, they will slowly surface on their own.  Additionally, the metal ballast that is used to set buoyancy can be dropped  from inside the craft, resulting in significant positive buoyancy on the craft and a one way trip to the surface.

So if she's not bobbing around on the surface somewhere, odds are very high that she's either hooked on something, or there was a catastrophic structural failure that compromised the hull, and she filled with water.  Assuming even a modicum of sense from her designers.

[Ben]

Assuming even a modicum of sense from her designers.

Continuing to assume that, I'm just seeing an incredibly low probability of them being snagged. There should still be some kind of comms available, and assuming "one is none" redundancy, they should have still been getting acoustics from a transponder. The fact that the transponder signal just stopped is part of my "catastrophic failure" supposition.

While not an expert, I did seven missions with the Navy's Phantom DHD2+2 ROV with NFESC/NBVC as the nav guy, which made me responsible for the acoustic transponders. At least on ROV's, they are freakin' rugged, and also independently powered. You plug them in to charge just like charging a phone. One on the ROV, another on the depressor, so if one went out, you could still get a signal from the other one and kinda know where the ROV was. I always set mine for three second pings for mapping, which is another weird thing with this sub: Fifteen minute pings seems stupid. There's absolutely no reason to set the pings that long. Fifteen seconds would be long. You're using practically no data, and it's not like you have to listen to pings like they do in the movies - you can just watch the dot blink on the computer screen on the ship.

So to me (again, assuming redundancy), no acoustic transponder means something bad happened really fast.

[WLJ]

According to this protocol is to bang for 3 minutes every 30.

The ocean is full of sounds, but reports suggest that the “banging” picked up by the rescue team is regular and so may be produced by a human source.

On board the missing craft is a retired French diver, who would know the protocol to alert search teams is to bang for three minutes every half an hour.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=64930267f2e5745fd8a78156%26Hopes%20of%20a%20rescue%20rise%20slightly%20-%20but%20numerous%20challenges%20remain%262023-06-21T14%3A06%3A56.382Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:4e1373f3-8527-4d41-995b-8c1fe9c28504&pinned_post_asset_id=64930267f2e5745fd8a78156&pinned_post_type=share

Also at that link

It must be stressed that in previous undersea rescue attempts – such banging signals have been checked and found to be fake, notably in 2017 when the Argentinian submarine, ARA San Juan.

Now who the heck would fake something like that? People are......

[MechAg94]

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2023/06/submarine-missing-near-titanic-used-a-30-logitech-gamepad-for-steering/
I am real curious what went into the design of this craft.  Are there mechanical backups to these controls?  Also seems pretty cramped for 5 people.