Southern Baptists are encouraged to hold the line on gays

[Jocassee]

And don't forget the various Primitive Baptist subgroups.  I got invited to one of their church dances(!) where the preacher brought a case of beer(!).

Are Primitive Baptists found anywhere outside of North Georgia?

[MechAg94]

And do they call themselves Primitive?  Never heard of that one, but I never looked around for all the denominations.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

We have several primitive baptist churches near here . Nice folks


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[Tallpine]

We have several primitive baptist churches near here . Nice folks


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So do primitive baptists only use natural bodies of water 

 

[KD5NRH]

Are Primitive Baptists found anywhere outside of North Georgia?

Quite a few of them here in north central Texas. 

[Balog]

I would say that Christian just means someone who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ.  I guess anyone can call themselves anything.  It doesn't matter to me.  I figure God is the one deciding who is saved and who isn't.  I don't think I or any Church need to try to decide that.

Contradicting those that are spreading heresy in Christ's name is in fact one of the things we're pretty explicitly commanded to do.

[MillCreek]

Contradicting those that are spreading heresy in Christ's name is in fact one of the things we're pretty explicitly commanded to do.

And what qualifies you to define heresy?  Is there some sort of consensus definition or is it more whatever I or my own church says it is?

[MillCreek]

http://online.wsj.com/articles/southern-baptists-gay-community-break-bread-at-conference-1414691923

The Southern Baptists and the gays are warming up to each other. 

[Balog]

And what qualifies you to define heresy?  Is there some sort of consensus definition or is it more whatever I or my own church says it is?

Yes, there is a broad base consensus on orthodox Christian doctrine. I'm honestly curious, do you feel that terms regarding religion have no meaning? Anyone can describe themselves as belonging to any group and it's true, regardless of what their actual beliefs are? To put it another way so you hopefully don't take it personally and actually answer, let me tell you a story then ask a question.

A guy in my platoon back in the day described himself as a Buddhist. According to the generally accepted orthodoxy, Buddhism is defined as a belief in a set of things: karma, reincarnation, 4 noble truths, the last of which is the noble eightfold path. His stated beliefs directly contradicted a large number of those orthodox beliefs. He believed in acquiring wealth and power as a prime good, held extremism as a virtue, reveled in inflicting suffering pain and death on the people we fought etc etc. Those are explicitly stated beliefs, that directly contravene the teachings he claimed to be a part of.

So was he a Buddhist?

[Angel Eyes]

Quite a few of them here in north central Texas. 

There are even a few in California.

[MillCreek]

My personal belief system is similar to that of MechAg94 above, and I do not feel the compulsion to draw lines to exclude or include people into the group based upon my own criteria.  You can certainly cite whatever criteria for membership in the Christian group that you want, but you should realize that not everyone outside of your congregation or denomination shares your beliefs.  I think that good and moral behavior can be occur within or without organized religion, and I am more concerned with behavior than membership within a particular group or the stamp of approval of a particular person, clergy or congregation.

[makattak]

My personal belief system is similar to that of MechAg94 above, and I do not feel the compulsion to draw lines to exclude or include people into the group based upon my own criteria.  You can certainly cite whatever criteria for membership in the Christian group that you want, but you should realize that not everyone outside of your congregation or denomination shares your beliefs.  I think that good and moral behavior can be occur within or without organized religion, and I am more concerned with behavior than membership within a particular group or the stamp of approval of a particular person, clergy or congregation.

So.... was he a Buddhist?

Is that so hard a question to answer?

Personally, I believe people can live moral lives apart from the influence of religion. For that I am happy for them as living morally is better.

However, I believe that a moral life, lived apart from the sacrifice of Christ will lead that person to hell. I further believe that anyone telling them otherwise (especially one claiming to be a Christian) is guilty of great sin and will be held to account for leading others astray.

[MillCreek]

So.... was he a Buddhist?

Is that so hard a question to answer?

I have not the faintest idea.  Was Hitler a Christian?

[MechAg94]

My personal belief system is similar to that of MechAg94 above, and I do not feel the compulsion to draw lines to exclude or include people into the group based upon my own criteria.  You can certainly cite whatever criteria for membership in the Christian group that you want, but you should realize that not everyone outside of your congregation or denomination shares your beliefs.  I think that good and moral behavior can be occur within or without organized religion, and I am more concerned with behavior than membership within a particular group or the stamp of approval of a particular person, clergy or congregation.

I don't know if I misspoke or not.  I was only referring to judging other people who claim to be Christians.  I certainly do have opinions on what is or is not good doctrine and who might not be Christian.  Show me some specific beliefs someone teaches and we can talk about it.  We can also talk about whether it gets in the way of Salvation.  My pastor was pretty explicit that if you are at a Church that you think is teaching false doctrine, you should leave, quickly.  You may try to confront them with the truth as you see it, but if they continue, you need to look out for yourself and your family's Christian life and find a better Church where you can learn.  Let God take care of putting those people on the right path.  

One thing I was always taught was the works in this life mean nothing as far as being saved and getting into Heaven.  The best and nicest person in the world who has no faith in Christ will not get into Heaven.  However, a lot of Christians will disagree or won't take a hard line on that.  I can state my opinion and the reason loudly or softly, but other Christians need to decide for themselves.  My responsibility is primarily to myself and my family.  

[makattak]

I have not the faintest idea.  Was Hitler a Christian?

That's not a hard question. The saving grace of Christ was available, even for someone as terrible as Hitler, up to the last moments of his life. Given the way he lived his life and the way he ended it, I very much doubt that he accepted that grace.

So, no. He wasn't a Christian.

Are you able to say that Hitler wasn't a Christian?

[roo_ster]

Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up.

[Balog]

I have not the faintest idea.  Was Hitler a Christian?

His recorded beliefs are not in line with Christian doctrine so no.

My personal belief system is similar to that of MechAg94 above, and I do not feel the compulsion to draw lines to exclude or include people into the group based upon my own criteria.  You can certainly cite whatever criteria for membership in the Christian group that you want, but you should realize that not everyone outside of your congregation or denomination shares your beliefs.  I think that good and moral behavior can be occur within or without organized religion, and I am more concerned with behavior than membership within a particular group or the stamp of approval of a particular person, clergy or congregation.

Compulsion, that's cute. "He's doing something I disagree with, it must just be a sign of mental illness!"

If we pretend words have no meaning it's rather hard to communicate. Words have meanings, and while there are plenty of squidgy cases at the edges where there is no hard and fast right or wrong that doesn't mean that it's impossible to quantify things. Saying "A member of Group X is defined as anyone who claims to be a member, and you're an awful judgy person if you don't accept that" is just silly, and you know that in every other aspect of your life.

If a person claims to be a Communist, but their actual stated beliefs are that there should be no form of government and that all "laws" should just be voluntary contracts then they aren't a Communist regardless of how they describe their beliefs. If a person claims to be a libertarian but their actual stated beliefs are that the government should control the means of production, forbid using any substance deemed harmful, and hold a monopoly n force then they aren't a libertarian regardless of how they describe their beliefs.

Neither of those is any type of objective judgement on the rightness or wrongness of either belief system, merely pointing out that the entire reason we have words to describe belief systems is to be able to classify these sorts of things. 

[Tallpine]

My personal belief system is similar to that of MechAg94 above, and I do not feel the compulsion to draw lines to exclude or include people into the group based upon my own criteria.  You can certainly cite whatever criteria for membership in the Christian group that you want, but you should realize that not everyone outside of your congregation or denomination shares your beliefs.  I think that good and moral behavior can be occur within or without organized religion, and I am more concerned with behavior than membership within a particular group or the stamp of approval of a particular person, clergy or congregation.

So does that mean that I can be a Pagan without dancing naked under the full moon

 

[Balog]

So does that mean that I can be a Pagan without dancing naked under the full moon

 

Apparently it means you can be a Pagan while telling people about the miraculous visitation the angel Moroni paid to Joseph Smith, or about Allah and his Prophet Mohammed. 

[MillCreek]

So does that mean that I can be a Pagan without dancing naked under the full moon

 

Only if you are one of those squishy Mainstream Protestant pagans.

[Hawkmoon]

I would say that Christian just means someone who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. 

Ummm, errrr ... no. Just ... no.

A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus was the son of God, that He died to atone for our sins, and that on the third day after His crucifixion he rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven.

By your definition, a Muslim could almost be described as a Christian, since Islam recognizes Jesus as "a" prophet. (Just not "the" prophet.)

[Perd Hapley]

Ummm, errrr ... no. Just ... no.

A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus was the son of God, that He died to atone for our sins, and that on the third day after His crucifixion he rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven.

By your definition, a Muslim could almost be described as a Christian, since Islam recognizes Jesus as "a" prophet. (Just not "the" prophet.)

Christ himself taught those things about himself.* Neither a Muslim nor anyone else could believe and follow Christ, without also believing that Christ was the Son of God, etc. MechAg's definition is perfectly Biblical.


*With the correction that he ascended into heaven some days later.

[Perd Hapley]

My personal belief system is similar to that of MechAg94 above, and I do not feel the compulsion to draw lines to exclude or include people into the group based upon my own criteria.  You can certainly cite whatever criteria for membership in the Christian group that you want, but you should realize that not everyone outside of your congregation or denomination shares your beliefs.  I think that good and moral behavior can be occur within or without organized religion, and I am more concerned with behavior than membership within a particular group or the stamp of approval of a particular person, clergy or congregation.

That's all a little muddled, so let's see if we can clarify.

"My personal belief system is similar to that of MechAg94 above..."

MechAg said that a Christian is someone who believes in and follows the teachings of Christ. In this, there is no daylight between MechAg, Balog, or the way Christianity has commonly been defined. The idea that the Christian both believes in and follows Christ is found throughout the New Testament, as is the insistence that those who don't believe and obey are not part of Christ's flock.


"I do not feel the compulsion to draw lines to exclude or include people into the group based upon my own criteria."

I'm not sure how anyone could expect to claim that Balog is using his own criteria. The idea that Christianity (like most other things) has certain characteristics, and that failing to display these characteristics makes one a non-Christian is hardly unique to Balog. And Balog is hardly, by describing where people stand in relation to Christ's teachings, excluding or including anyone. They do that themselves.


"You can certainly cite whatever criteria for membership in the Christian group that you want, but you should realize that not everyone outside of your congregation or denomination shares your beliefs."

That is exactly what Balog is pointing out: some people claim the mantle of Christianity, but have different beliefs - beliefs that fall outside of Christendom.


"I think that good and moral behavior can be occur within or without organized religion, and I am more concerned with behavior than membership within a particular group or the stamp of approval of a particular person, clergy or congregation."

Ah. I suspected that was the problem. You think that Balog, by saying "So-and-so is not a Christian," is just expressing his dislike of So-and-so. In reality, he's just pointing out that So-and-so is not what he claims to be.

[MillCreek]

I think it would be most interesting to see the various criteria people here use to define who is a Christian.

[Balog]

I think it would be most interesting to see the various criteria people here use to define who is a Christian.

Anyone who hews to orthodoxy. The Nicene Creed is a good place to start to see what that means specifically. But all those creeds make no sense if one believes there is no supernaturla Creator, or that the Bible is just a collection of fairy tales etc.