Poll

Is Edward Snowden a criminal, or a hero?

This guy is a true blue hero
26 (44.1%)
Criminal.  He violated his Top Secret clearance
1 (1.7%)
It's still Fistful's fault
8 (13.6%)
All 3
24 (40.7%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?  (Read 54624 times)

dogmush

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2013, 08:40:51 PM »
Taking classified data and giving it to foreign nationals (eg BRITISH REPORTERS) is f)&$$ing espionage.  There is NO wiggle room there.  He committed a crime, that crime is espionage.  The fact that the American people also saw it doesn't change that fact.
The information he revealed did not reveal -illegal- activity, it revealed technically legal, albeit activity that isn't 'right'.

Don't get me wrong, I wish things weren't monitored the way they apparently are, but dumping classified stuff into the hands of others, not to mention revealing and compromising sources and methods, is NOT the way you do it.

Hell, he could have simply just SAID what was going on to reporters, and it would still be the same crime, but far less damaging (in theory).

He is a criminal, not a hero, and I believe he did what he did to hurt this country, and that's why he fled.  If he wanted to "take a stand" he could have done so in a less damaging way, and take his licks...if he was in the right, then maybe a jury would see it that way, HOWEVER, running to a foreign country isn't "doing the right thing" its called f@$$ing espionage.

Without disputing the rest of your post, I've seen no evidence that he harbors malice towards America.  People make bad decisions with good intentions all the time.

birdman

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2013, 08:44:40 PM »
Without disputing the rest of your post, I've seen no evidence that he harbors malice towards America.  People make bad decisions with good intentions all the time.

I know what you mean, I didn't say he did have that reason, I said I believed he did.  I'm careful about opinion vs fact, in that post, his reasoning is opinion, what he did, fact.

grampster

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2013, 08:47:57 PM »
What is worse?  A government that is criminaly spying on it's citizens that was told by a court was unconstitutional and yet proceeded?  Or a citizen in a position to reveal these criminal unconstitutional actions and did?  One might say if he didn't expose it,  and he knew or suspected the American MSM would not expose the information, so he went elsewhere, he would be guilty of conspiracy if he kept silent.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2013, 08:51:55 PM »
What is worse?  A government that is criminaly spying on it's citizens that was told by a court was unconstitutional and yet proceeded?  Or a citizen in a position to reveal these criminal unconstitutional actions and did?  One might say if he didn't expose it,  and he knew or suspected the American MSM would not expose the information, so he went elsewhere, he would be guilty of conspiracy if he kept silent.

what court ruling do you allude to?
it wasn't smith
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2013, 08:58:11 PM »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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dogmush

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2013, 09:03:11 PM »
I know what you mean, I didn't say he did have that reason, I said I believed he did.  I'm careful about opinion vs fact, in that post, his reasoning is opinion, what he did, fact.

I know, which is why I asked.  You might have had (probably do) information I didn't.  I do agree that his actions aren't that of a 100% altruistic whistle blower, But he seems genuine in his belief that he did the right thing.

I confess I'm still on the fence.  I'm having a Facebook conversation with a friend on this same subject.  What he did was DEFINITELY illegal.  I'm not sure it was wrong.

roo_ster

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2013, 09:16:12 PM »
Taking classified data and giving it to foreign nationals (eg BRITISH REPORTERS) is f)&$$ing espionage. 

Glenn Greenwald, the recipient of Snowden's documents, is an American citizen.

agreeing with this schmuck hurts   http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/12/peter-king-nsa-fears-too-many-conservatives-have-b/

Yes, agreeing with him hurts due to the contortions one must perform to stay in agreement with him.  Tell me, does he today support terrorists with interesting accents or is he against them?  While thinking about it, pass the hat for Noraid around the room, won't you?



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birdman

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2013, 09:24:19 PM »
Glenn Greenwald, the recipient of Snowden's documents, is an American citizen.

Doesn't matter.  They have been disseminated to other foreign nationals outside the country.  The citizenship of the initial recipient doesn't make it not espionage.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2013, 10:36:14 PM »
What about Snowden showing evidence of the US hacking into Chinese computers? That's no longer defending Americans from an over-obtrusive government. That's treason.

I didn't see any mention of that in any threads, but I could have missed it. Story is all over, including here.

roo_ster

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2013, 11:18:07 PM »

Doesn't matter.  They have been disseminated to other foreign nationals outside the country.  The citizenship of the initial recipient doesn't make it not espionage.


Given your definition every single security incident that results in any bit of classified data getting out in the wild is now espionage.  Because foreign nationals have access to the American telecommunications network. 

What I have seen, it is almost always negligence, ignorance, or arrogance.  Senior folk with their heads up their ass up in the clouds, too important or smart to worry about security as it ought.  Former FBI or other federales who bring their sloppy infosec habits into industry.  (I consider former federal employees of any sort risks until proved otherwise.)  Etc., etc.  IOW, just because it eventually gets to foreign ears or eyeballs doesn't make it espionage.

Quote from: Article 3, Section 3
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

In Snowden's case, time may tell and evidence (other than vigorous assertions by gov't) may implicate him in espionage.  TBD.



[FTR, I am the guy who has no problem grunting out a stinking loaf of security requirements on a conference room table, pet Director project or no pet Director project.  Did I rejoice when the Director for Dumbassery and Two-fers got shivved in the reorg?  Why, yes I did.]
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roo_ster

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birdman

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #110 on: June 13, 2013, 08:14:22 AM »
Given your definition every single security incident that results in any bit of classified data getting out in the wild is now espionage.  Because foreign nationals have access to the American telecommunications network. 

What I have seen, it is almost always negligence, ignorance, or arrogance.  Senior folk with their heads up their ass up in the clouds, too important or smart to worry about security as it ought.  Former FBI or other federales who bring their sloppy infosec habits into industry.  (I consider former federal employees of any sort risks until proved otherwise.)  Etc., etc.  IOW, just because it eventually gets to foreign ears or eyeballs doesn't make it espionage.

In Snowden's case, time may tell and evidence (other than vigorous assertions by gov't) may implicate him in espionage.  TBD.



[FTR, I am the guy who has no problem grunting out a stinking loaf of security requirements on a conference room table, pet Director project or no pet Director project.  Did I rejoice when the Director for Dumbassery and Two-fers got shivved in the reorg?  Why, yes I did.]

I didn't mean to say he -will- be tried with espionage, just that technically, letting material out into the wild, especially doing so in a foreign country in a non-secure area, that crime is espionage.

zahc

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2013, 08:45:11 AM »
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
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RevDisk

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2013, 08:51:57 AM »
If one follows the 4th amendment and has a specific individual in mind and can get a warrant to present to service providers, there is no need to grab beau coup metdata.  The service provider knows its customers, tracks usage, and sends them a bill already.

Also, enough with the rubberstamp secret courts.  We already have a federal judiciary system.  No need for a parallell kangaroo court.  

http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/#rept

To put in perspective of "rubberstamp", 33949 warrants were applied for, 33942 were granted, 11 were rejected. (Numbers not clean because warrant applications can carry over from previous year.) 143,364 NSLs were applications were completed that involved US persons.

That is a 0.000324 rejection rate, or 99.999676 approval rate. Which deeply says something about those 11 rejected warrants.

It would probably be a better idea to have a rotating system. The judges do need security clearances. So, set up a roster, say a year or two out. They have a year or so to get their clearance, they serve as a FISA judge for say, 3 to 6 months. Then never again. Keep two presiding judges on as permanent staff to provide continuity, but rotate them out every five years or whatnot on an alternating basis.


Taking classified data and giving it to foreign nationals (eg BRITISH REPORTERS) is f)&$$ing espionage.  There is NO wiggle room there.  He committed a crime, that crime is espionage.  The fact that the American people also saw it doesn't change that fact.
The information he revealed did not reveal -illegal- activity, it revealed technically legal, albeit activity that isn't 'right'.

Don't get me wrong, I wish things weren't monitored the way they apparently are, but dumping classified stuff into the hands of others, not to mention revealing and compromising sources and methods, is NOT the way you do it.

Hell, he could have simply just SAID what was going on to reporters, and it would still be the same crime, but far less damaging (in theory).

He is a criminal, not a hero, and I believe he did what he did to hurt this country, and that's why he fled.  If he wanted to "take a stand" he could have done so in a less damaging way, and take his licks...if he was in the right, then maybe a jury would see it that way, HOWEVER, running to a foreign country isn't "doing the right thing" its called f@$$ing espionage.

Meh. Yes and no.

He is a criminal, that is definite and beyond question. Maybe a hero, that's a bit subjective.
He hurt his government, that is definite and beyond question. Whether he hurt his country is still yet to be seen.

Bit of an aside, one of the laws in question Internal Security Act of 1950 (aka Subversive Activities Control Act of 1950, McCarran Act, etc) is used to suspend the Second Amendment on military bases.

He is guilty of 18 USC § 793 (d)

"(d) Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; or"

Sentence is "Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both."


Problem is, it's been bitterly disputed since Schenck v. United States. You have the whole Sedition Act thing that was grossly unconstitutional, and got tossed out. The Espionage Act was deemed Constitutional by SCOTUS in Schenck, but not in a comprehensive way. So, short answer is, he's probably definitely guilty of violating the Espionage Act.

However, it'll be up to the courts to say whether exposing potentially or actually illegal activity is covered by the Espionage Act. His lawyer likely will argue that this was unrelated to national defense, because it was aimed against the US population and not foreign enemies. I am not saying I agree with this line of thought, just that it is not my place to decide guilt or innocence.

Short answer is, we'll see. If the operation was primarily aimed at the US citizenry, it's not espionage because it's not related to national defense unless the government argues that it was part of national defense against US citizens. Which it could, but would be suicidal grade bad PR. If the operation was primarily geared against foreign enemies, he should be found guilty (IMHO, IANAL/IANAJ) even if the program itself is illegal. I don't know of any legal "exclusion" rule that exempts unauthorized disclosure of classified material relating to the illegal nature of a program. There bloody well should be, because Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act is near useless.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 09:41:56 AM by RevDisk »
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TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #113 on: June 13, 2013, 11:34:18 AM »
Not to Godwin the thread or anything,

http://fff.org/2013/06/12/who-were-the-patriots-and-traitors-in-nazi-germany/


There's something of a difference between Snowden and the Scholl siblings of "The White Rose."
We are engaged in a war against Jihadis, who attacked us directly on 9-11-01.  We didn't start the war, we simply engaged in it.  One can legitimatly criticize many aspects of this war -- and many people have and do just exactly that without being carted off to labor camps or dark rooms.
Nazi Germany started the war and engaged in active programs to exterminate "undesirable" people like Jews and Gypsies.
What Snowdon did has hurt, to one degree or another, our efforts to gather intel on the Jihadis and that damages our ability to stop them -- which is questionable at best, since we obviously missed the two Russian teens who bombed the Boston Marathon last 15 April 2013.
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brimic

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #114 on: June 13, 2013, 11:46:32 AM »
Quote
since we obviously missed the two Russian teens who bombed the Boston Marathon last 15 April 2013

 I gues one could also make the argument that NSA isn't listening to the content of phone calls if they missed the message where the Russians called our FBI (or whoever) and warned that "these two sum-Bleeps are going to bleep up your bleep if you don't keep an eye on them." :laugh:
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HankB

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #115 on: June 13, 2013, 11:57:09 AM »
agreeing with this schmuck hurts   http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/12/peter-king-nsa-fears-too-many-conservatives-have-b/
From the link:  "He also accused his fellow GOPers of misrepresenting the surveillance programs as “spying” and “snooping,” "

Surveillance isn't spying or snooping . . . right.

Why does this parsing of words remind me of "What is, is?" 
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birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #116 on: June 13, 2013, 12:05:02 PM »
I gues one could also make the argument that NSA isn't listening to the content of phone calls if they missed the message where the Russians called our FBI (or whoever) and warned that "these two sum-Bleeps are going to bleep up your bleep if you don't keep an eye on them." :laugh:

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/061213-659753-all-intrusive-obama-terror-dragnet-excludes-mosques.htm

RevDisk

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #117 on: June 13, 2013, 12:26:46 PM »
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/061213-659753-all-intrusive-obama-terror-dragnet-excludes-mosques.htm

Annnnnd now we get to the crux of the issue. The US government wants to spy on the citizenry, but ignore the real problems. If I wore tin foil, I'd make a comment about "Why cure the problem when you can make money selling treatments forever?" 

But really, it's just incompetence, political correctness and being normal bureaucrats.
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red headed stranger

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #118 on: June 13, 2013, 12:29:40 PM »
So, when/where do we establish the APS mosque?    :angel:
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #119 on: June 13, 2013, 12:47:26 PM »
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/06/FISA-court-Justice-Department-EFF-opinon-surveillance

I love this.

FISA says you (NSA) did something naughty.

EFF gets wind of it, wants to know what.  DOJ blocks, says FISA won't let us tell you.

FISA says, oh yes you will come clean.  EFF gets to know about the naughty thing that NSA did.

DOJ says, no way.  And you, FISA, don't matter, in regards to disclosure of this information to the untermensch.  So sit in a corner and be quiet until we need you to let us kill puppies and burn pregnant moms.

EFF then goes to a non-kangaroo court to try and get enforcement.  Can they subpoena the FISA judge, or is he too secretsquirrel to trifle with such things?
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birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #120 on: June 13, 2013, 01:08:24 PM »
EFF then goes to a non-kangaroo court to try and get enforcement.  Can they subpoena the FISA judge, or is he too secretsquirrel to trifle with such things?

FISA court judges are federal district court judges, so the question is, can you depose a federal judge about activities performed as part of their duties, while they are serving?  It seems unlikely...but I don't know.

Additionally, they are asking questions about classified duties performed by said judge, so by definition, since disclosure outside of the FISA court would constitute at the least a mishandling crime, the 5th amendment applies, as any testimony would be, by definition, self-incriminating.

roo_ster

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #121 on: June 13, 2013, 01:10:11 PM »
Annnnnd now we get to the crux of the issue. The US government wants to spy on the citizenry, but ignore the real problems. If I wore tin foil, I'd make a comment about "Why cure the problem when you can make money selling treatments forever?"  

But really, it's just incompetence, political correctness and being normal bureaucrats.

Indeed.  Every external threat and/or threat we allowed to come on to our land results in the existing citizenry taking it in the jimmy from fed.gov. [Jubal_Early]Does that seem right to you?[/Jubal_Early]

Regards,

roo_ster

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #122 on: June 13, 2013, 02:09:36 PM »
Annnnnd now we get to the crux of the issue. The US government wants to spy on the citizenry, but ignore the real problems. If I wore tin foil, I'd make a comment about "Why cure the problem when you can make money selling treatments forever?" 

But really, it's just incompetence, political correctness and being normal bureaucrats.

multiple cruxes
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/04/AR2010120403720.html
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MechAg94

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #123 on: June 13, 2013, 04:39:39 PM »
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/06/13/Bank-robber-NSA-records

another twist out of this.  I doubt the guy gets anything.
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just Warren

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #124 on: June 13, 2013, 10:21:26 PM »
Here is an article from PopMech that explains just how this NSA thing could just crush US information companies.
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