Author Topic: Israel Under Attack  (Read 46315 times)

MechAg94

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #150 on: October 11, 2023, 10:32:14 AM »
We tend to discourage vigilante justice because people often end up taking retribution against people who weren't involved or act on rumors instead of facts.  The justice system is supposed to investigate and punish those responsible based on evidence.  At least, that is the ideal.  However, HAMAS is a terrorist organization that runs the what govt there is in Gaza.  This isn't a police issue.  This a war.  War isn't nice and pretty and civilized.  It never has been.  The nicest war is still pretty horrible.  But if you are not prepared to blast the crap out of anyone who would commit these sorts of acts against your country, then it will keep happening.  If you want peace, prepare for war and be willing to follow through. 

I would like to think we would not tolerate what Israel has tolerated in the past.  If the Canada started radicalizing and gangs started crossing the border and committing murder and torture, if Canadian artillery would randomly fire shells into the US, I would think the US wouldn't put up with it.  Of course, journalists in LA and D.C. would probably say the same thing as they don't live close to the border.   
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MechAg94

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #151 on: October 11, 2023, 10:36:04 AM »
Was the GWOT a defensive operation?

Edited to add:  Also I'm going to disagree that my analogy was bad.  Hamas got lucky and had a successful terrorist attack.  In the scope of "Threats to the Israeli government" they have zero chance of continuing the offensive, meeting up with troops from the West Bank or Lebanon, or forcing any major policy change by force of arms.  This is the nation state equivalent of a break in and vandalism.

Israel could have rebuilt the walls, hardened and upgraded their cameras and monitoring, installed more interceptors and re-armed the Iron Dome and gone about their life.  I'm not saying they should mind you, but they could have, and that would have been "defending themselves from terrorist attacks".

They have chosen to go on the offensive.
As most any sane govt would.  To sit back behind defenses and do nothing only invites the enemy to try again or find some other gap or vulnerability. 
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dogmush

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #152 on: October 11, 2023, 10:42:27 AM »
  But if you're going to be consistent that killing a few thousand innocent people is not a serious issue, then wouldn't you have to analyze Israel's response the same way?  So long as Israel doesn't glass the Gaza strip it's just a proportional slap on the wrist, right?


Sure.  One of those defensive slaps I hear about all the time.

We tend to discourage vigilante justice because people often end up taking retribution against people who weren't involved or act on rumors instead of facts.  The justice system is supposed to investigate and punish those responsible based on evidence.  At least, that is the ideal.  However, HAMAS is a terrorist organization that runs the what govt there is in Gaza.  This isn't a police issue.  This a war.  War isn't nice and pretty and civilized.  It never has been.  The nicest war is still pretty horrible.  But if you are not prepared to blast the crap out of anyone who would commit these sorts of acts against your country, then it will keep happening.  If you want peace, prepare for war and be willing to follow through. 


Agreed, Indeed I have been saying in several place on the internet for days now that this is a war, and to stop projecting Western fantasies of what is "right" onto two different cultures engaging in a war.  It's going to be bloody.

The chuckle I was having was ONLY because so many American new sources keep having to hammer home that Israel is "defending" itself by invading Gaza.  They have to do that BECAUSE Americans are too retarded to understand that Nations fight wars, and in wars a bunch of folks gonna die, even non combatats.  They can't just say the truth:  Hamas pushed too far, and Israel is going to invade Palestine and *expletive deleted*ck them up, and a bunch of civilians are going to die in the invasion, and a bunch more are going to die of disease and starvation in the rubble, so that the next time Hamas starts talking about crossing the wall the survivors tell them to sit the *expletive deleted*ck down.

Because if they say that, Israel isn't the underdog, and America roots for the underdog.

But whatever, perhaps I'm the only one that finds that narrative funny,

WLJ

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #153 on: October 11, 2023, 11:05:48 AM »
Looking to refreeze the money

Democratic senators break with Biden and call to refreeze $6 billion Iranian 'ransom' funds after horrific Hamas terror attack on Israel
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12619057/Democratic-centrists-call-refreeze-6-billion-ransom-Biden-administration-probes-longtime-support-Hamas-horrific-Israel-terror-attack.html
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cordex

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #154 on: October 11, 2023, 11:11:51 AM »
Sure.  One of those defensive slaps I hear about all the time.
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.  Are you trying to say that a swat inherently cannot be defensive? 

In your contrived scenario where a coordinated attack targeting civilians is equivalent to breaking an entering and vandalism because it does not offer an existential threat to Israel, wouldn't airstrikes and artillery barrages be likewise merely a defensive push, a punch in the nose, or a swat to the wrist?

Or am I misunderstanding you entirely?

I think what I take your underlying point to be is correct - that wars suck, are messy, and people get killed who shouldn't be killed.  Nor do I disagree that people use propaganda and manipulated phrasing to make nasty things more palatable, and phrasing Israel's response as defensive is a means to that end.

Regardless, I'm not buying your analogy (intentional or not) that equates the Hamas attack to vandalism or robbery and the Israeli response to a scenario where the victim of a robbery "went home and got your guns, then went to the guy's house, killed him, burned down the house, kicked his family out into the street, and did it all while explicitly stating that you were being violent enough his decendents will remember and be scared".  Whatever your intent, your analogy goes out of its way to minimize the Hamas attack and makes the Israeli response out to be exponentially more severe by comparison.  Analogies are always imperfect, but they should at least have some internal consistency.

WLJ

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #155 on: October 11, 2023, 11:26:59 AM »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

MechAg94

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #156 on: October 11, 2023, 11:58:04 AM »
Sure.  One of those defensive slaps I hear about all the time.

Agreed, Indeed I have been saying in several place on the internet for days now that this is a war, and to stop projecting Western fantasies of what is "right" onto two different cultures engaging in a war.  It's going to be bloody.

The chuckle I was having was ONLY because so many American new sources keep having to hammer home that Israel is "defending" itself by invading Gaza.  They have to do that BECAUSE Americans are too retarded to understand that Nations fight wars, and in wars a bunch of folks gonna die, even non combatats.  They can't just say the truth:  Hamas pushed too far, and Israel is going to invade Palestine and *expletive deleted*ck them up, and a bunch of civilians are going to die in the invasion, and a bunch more are going to die of disease and starvation in the rubble, so that the next time Hamas starts talking about crossing the wall the survivors tell them to sit the *expletive deleted*ck down.

Because if they say that, Israel isn't the underdog, and America roots for the underdog.

But whatever, perhaps I'm the only one that finds that narrative funny,
The most consistent things I am seeing are:

1.  All the leftist journalists and govt types condemn the "violence", but often fall short of condemning the terrorists. 

2.  The UN and many leftist journalists always start calling for peace as soon as Israel started to take action in response.  It is always sounds as if they are secretly cheering for the terrorists and want to prevent Israel from doing anything that might actually defeat them. 

I don't really find it funny so much as predictable. 

The only new information for me this time:  I like Telegram as it allows people to share videos that show gore and violence or just gun stuff.  However, it seems that everyone that ever got kicked up every other forum ended up there and there is lots of distasteful commentary to ignore. 
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K Frame

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #157 on: October 11, 2023, 12:13:03 PM »
The most consistent things I am seeing are:

1.  All the leftist journalists and govt types condemn the "violence", but often fall short of condemning the terrorists. 

2.  The UN and many leftist journalists always start calling for peace as soon as Israel started to take action in response.  It is always sounds as if they are secretly cheering for the terrorists and want to prevent Israel from doing anything that might actually defeat them. 

I don't really find it funny so much as predictable. 

The only new information for me this time:  I like Telegram as it allows people to share videos that show gore and violence or just gun stuff.  However, it seems that everyone that ever got kicked up every other forum ended up there and there is lots of distasteful commentary to ignore. 

Absolutely spot on with what I've seen before, and what I'm seeing now.
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dogmush

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #158 on: October 11, 2023, 12:49:30 PM »

I think what I take your underlying point to be is correct - that wars suck, are messy, and people get killed who shouldn't be killed.  Nor do I disagree that people use propaganda and manipulated phrasing to make nasty things more palatable, and phrasing Israel's response as defensive is a means to that end.

Regardless, I'm not buying your analogy (intentional or not) that equates the Hamas attack to vandalism or robbery and the Israeli response to a scenario where the victim of a robbery "went home and got your guns, then went to the guy's house, killed him, burned down the house, kicked his family out into the street, and did it all while explicitly stating that you were being violent enough his decendents will remember and be scared".  Whatever your intent, your analogy goes out of its way to minimize the Hamas attack and makes the Israeli response out to be exponentially more severe by comparison. Analogies are always imperfect, but they should at least have some internal consistency.

It is my understanding that Israel intends their response to be exponentially more severe.  That's why I made my analogy that way, imperfect as it appears to have been.

Quote from: Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant
I have released all the restraints, we have [regained] control of the area, and we are moving to a full offense, .... You will have the ability to change the reality here. You have seen the prices [being paid], and you will get to see the change. Hamas wanted a change in Gaza;....They will regret this moment, Gaza will never go back to what it was.

[Israel’s response in the Gaza Strip will be] remembered for the next 50 years and [Hamas] will regret that they started it.

The rules of war have changed. The price the Gaza Strip will pay will be a very heavy price, that will change reality for generations,

Quotes from here: https://www.timesofisrael.com/gallant-israel-moving-to-full-offense-gaza-will-never-go-back-to-what-it-once-was/ and here: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/gallant-in-ofakim-israels-response-to-hamas-will-be-remembered-for-the-next-50-years/

Those are not the words of a man planning a what the military calls a "proportional response".  It sounds to me like someone that is planning on going home and getting his guns (staging the IDF and calling up reserves), Going to the guy's house (invading Gaza proper with ground forces), killing him (removing the leadership of Hamas), Burning down his house (Destroying critical buildings and infrastructure in Gaza, including water and power), and doing all while explicitly stating that you were being violent enough his decedents will remember and be scared ("will be remembered for the next 50 years).

Again I have no problem morally with Israel doing this.  They deserve their blood if they can take it.  I was just struck by Biden and Blinken and the other talking heads (That sounds like a New Age band) going on about "Israel has the right to defend itself" while Israel is clearly gearing up for something biblical. 

JTHunter

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #159 on: October 11, 2023, 01:16:42 PM »
Rob Ski over at AK Operators Union, Local 47-74 says YOU NEED AK NOW! Live or Die!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laryyzZjNvU&t=1s

Great find !  Spot on video !  =D
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JTHunter

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #160 on: October 11, 2023, 01:32:07 PM »
As most any sane govt would.  To sit back behind defenses and do nothing only invites the enemy to try again or find some other gap or vulnerability.

Yeah, like our southern border.  The fact that there are now both Chinese "immigrants" as well as young male Syrians showing up down there should show multiple "red flags".  :facepalm:  [barf]  [ar15]
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cordex

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #161 on: October 11, 2023, 01:49:35 PM »
It is my understanding that Israel intends their response to be exponentially more severe.
Ah.  I guess we'll have to see what actually comes about.

JTHunter

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #162 on: October 11, 2023, 01:57:42 PM »
The local TV news just had a story on about the CnC functions of Scott AFB in IL-ANNOY.  They are responsible for the logistics, including in-flight refueling.
I bring this up as posted the other day at Gunsnet (https://www.gunsnet.net/showthread.php/47153-How-the-US-goes-into-that-goodnight-High-Altitude-EMP), this thread talked about a satellite the NorKs put up that has never transmitted any kind of signal and is in an unusual orbit, a circumpolar one.  This brings it over different sections of the U.S. multiple times a day.

What would be the result if it IS an EMP device and they set it off over Scott and disrupted their comm links?  How might that help Hamas/Iran/Russia in this new Mideast conflict?
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dogmush

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #163 on: October 11, 2023, 02:10:11 PM »
The US Military has a pretty robust communications network.  Knocking one base out is unlikely to effect operations for any length of time.

Northwoods

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #164 on: October 11, 2023, 03:04:39 PM »
The local TV news just had a story on about the CnC functions of Scott AFB in IL-ANNOY.  They are responsible for the logistics, including in-flight refueling.
I bring this up as posted the other day at Gunsnet (https://www.gunsnet.net/showthread.php/47153-How-the-US-goes-into-that-goodnight-High-Altitude-EMP), this thread talked about a satellite the NorKs put up that has never transmitted any kind of signal and is in an unusual orbit, a circumpolar one.  This brings it over different sections of the U.S. multiple times a day.

What would be the result if it IS an EMP device and they set it off over Scott and disrupted their comm links?  How might that help Hamas/Iran/Russia in this new Mideast conflict?


Norks setting off an emp over the USA would be dialing the F-around knob to 11.  The Find Out phase would eliminate any worries about the economic impact to South Korea should reunification ever happen.  Because there wouldn’t be enough left to reunify with to matter.
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Jim147

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #165 on: October 11, 2023, 04:37:42 PM »
So we were kinda talking about, "What if the Israeli citizens were armed?". Looks like a data point for, "They would still be alive" has been found:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12616229/Israeli-woman-Inbar-Lieberman-kibbutz-Nir-Hamas.html

It appears to be the only Kibbutz in the area that escaped a massacre. The terrorists faced return fire with some of them being killed, and they ran away. I'm unclear on how the Kibbutz got their guns, given the posts here outlining Israeli gun laws. The woman being lauded as a hero was their head of security. I'm guessing maybe they had an armory and she issued weapons early enough to do some good? Do all Kibbutzs have armories and security forces? If so, you'd think we would have heard of others who fought off the terrorists.

She was in charge of defense. She opened the armory and they set up ambushes killing 25 terrorists.
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Ben

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #166 on: October 11, 2023, 05:43:20 PM »
Next Friday could be interesting: The Muslim "Day of Rage". They say "next Friday", but I don't know if that means Friday next week, or Friday the 13th.

Quote
1. To show anger, especially next Friday, in Muslim countries and Also among Muslim diaspora around the world; he called it “the Friday of Al-Aqsa flood”, he said this will send a message of rage to Zionists and to America

https://twitchy.com/brettt/2023/10/11/head-of-hamas-calls-for-a-day-of-rage-next-friday-from-his-hiding-place-n2388425
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BobR

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #167 on: October 11, 2023, 06:22:05 PM »
Next Friday could be interesting: The Muslim "Day of Rage". They say "next Friday", but I don't know if that means Friday next week, or Friday the 13th.

https://twitchy.com/brettt/2023/10/11/head-of-hamas-calls-for-a-day-of-rage-next-friday-from-his-hiding-place-n2388425

Ah yes, the head of Hamas who lives the life of luxury in Qatar. I wonder how much of his own blood he is willing to give up for his day of rage, ok, rhetorical question.

bob

Ben

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #168 on: October 11, 2023, 06:37:34 PM »
Ah yes, the head of Hamas who lives the life of luxury in Qatar.

Yeah, our buddies in Qatar. I don't understand why we're so cozy with them. I recall people from there roaming my building when I was still working, and people from our DC office visiting them for "scientific knowledge exchange", and coming back with photos of their stays at 100 star hotels.
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De Selby

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #169 on: October 11, 2023, 06:47:25 PM »
After the GWOT you’d expect people to be more skeptical of international entanglement, and claims that this or that punitive war will work out well. If there’s any angle for America in this, it is extremely hard to see how it will yield anything other than blowback.

Whether it’s war on Mexico for cartels, war on Russia to save the Ukrainian patriots, war on Palestinians to avenge the Israelis, the cheerleading for it smacks of folks having watched Saving Private Ryan one too many times.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #170 on: October 11, 2023, 08:38:03 PM »
Yeah, our buddies in Qatar. I don't understand why we're so cozy with them. I recall people from there roaming my building when I was still working, and people from our DC office visiting them for "scientific knowledge exchange", and coming back with photos of their stays at 100 star hotels.

You're just jealous because the best you ever got was a 95-star hotel.
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dogmush

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #171 on: October 11, 2023, 08:52:47 PM »
FWIW he said Friday the 13th.

Stay strapped.

HankB

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #172 on: October 11, 2023, 09:21:58 PM »
After the GWOT you’d expect people to be more skeptical of international entanglement, and claims that this or that punitive war will work out well. If there’s any angle for America in this, it is extremely hard to see how it will yield anything other than blowback . . .
I'm not a real historian, so help me out here . . . what blowback did Rome get after the end of the Third Punic War?
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Lennyjoe

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #173 on: October 11, 2023, 10:16:09 PM »
FWIW he said Friday the 13th.

Stay strapped.

Trying to decide which to carry along with my sidearm, an AR15 or my AK47…..lol

Northwoods

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Re: Israel Under Attack
« Reply #174 on: October 11, 2023, 10:25:52 PM »
Trying to decide which to carry along with my sidearm, an AR15 or my AK47…..lol

An AR in 7.62x39
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