Author Topic: Rule by fear or rule by law?  (Read 49723 times)

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,208
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #100 on: February 28, 2008, 07:03:40 PM »
He and his cronies have already done their damage.   


I like how you can make anyone sound extra-super-evil, by calling their associates "cronies."  Riley and his cronies enjoy that tactic.   smiley
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

Finch

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 465
    • Fading Freedoms
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #101 on: February 28, 2008, 07:26:38 PM »
whats that say about the american peoples feelings?

Well, you posted the statistics. A 30% approval rating means that a majority of the country thinks he sucks. Pretty basic.

Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • Guest
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2008, 07:29:12 PM »
aaah  but they are even less enamored of congress. and go take a look at what the dems approval was in 2006 versus now

Finch

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 465
    • Fading Freedoms
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #103 on: February 28, 2008, 07:32:05 PM »
aaah  but they are even less enamored of congress.

I know. This is why I am amazed that people here think that voting for the lesser of two evils is a logical option. This is what we will get when we do that. This is all we will get when we do that.
Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,860
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2008, 07:52:16 PM »
How many German & Japanese combatants, lawful or otherwise, were held for the duration of WWII without access to any tribunal of any kind?

Lots-they were called POW's.  They also got care packages from home, games, and large yards to exercise in.  And they were guaranteed released at the end of the war, since they weren't liable for any crime.  A prisoner of war cannot be punished.

But the unlawful ones faced military tribunals-as in the case above.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,860
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2008, 07:52:50 PM »
Quote
How on earth does that pass constitional or rational muster?
Are you qualified to pass that kind of judgement?
Is there a Supreme Court case you can point to that ruled as you say?
No.  Whether there are arguments on either side is irrelevant.

Uh, I just did cite a supreme court case.

Ex Parte Quirin-try reading it.  It's the German saboteur case that you were referring to earlier.

Again-Supreme Court case saying exactly what I just said above.  And I said what I did because....I had already read the decision, and thereby knew what the law was on the subject.  That is how we figure out what the laws are in this country, not by vague references to past practice.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #106 on: February 29, 2008, 02:38:30 AM »
Then it should have been obvious to the Administration that they couldn't do what they did.
But it wasn't.
Because their legal experts understood what you do not.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #107 on: February 29, 2008, 03:44:14 AM »
GEOJap,
I dont know whether you are being disingenuous or just really don't get it.

Read the language of the bill.  Notice how far that is from "Bush suspended habeas corpus."
Now read it again.
If the difference still eludes you, take up crochet.

For the sake of brevity, "Bush suspended habeas corpus" is a very abbreviated phrase which covers the whole process of a bill becoming law.  That is just too much to describe in one sentence, you're supposed to be able to connect the dots at some point, come on.  Responsibility for that law lies with the administration and congress, like I noted above.  To me, it's like splitting hairs, but I'll give you credit and admit it's not an accurate statement as it's too brief and not descriptive of the whole process.  But still, the law does exist.  It's not fiction.  Habeas corpus does not exist for US citizens in some situations now.  The framers would be rolling over in their graves at this.


A very abbreviated phrase?  Try, a misleading distortion of what actually happened.  As is everything you have posted on this topic so far.
You are right: habeas corpus does not exist for some citizens.  Namely those citizens who are acting as enemy combatants.  Of course, as POWs they never had a right of habeas corpus.  The German saboteur case established that conclusively, and that was well before Bush.
As of now, we have shown that Bush never said the constitution was a piece of paper.  We have shown that Bush did not suspend habeas corpus.  We have shown that Cheney did not commit treason.  A little digging and I am confident we can show that nothing, nada, of what you posted on this is true.

This is a gross misreading of Quirin.  Foreign military combatants out of uniform do not get POW protection, and hence, they face military tribunals to assess their guilt and hand down sentences.  American citizens get civilian trials as long as the civilian court system is operating as usual-that's the law, anyway.

There has never, ever been a rule or law or practice of denying combatants any right to trial whatsoever.  Yet this is exactly what the Bush administration claimed was the case with Padilla-that he had no right to habeas corpus, no right to trial, no right to judicial review of any kind, no right to military tribunal, and no right to challenge his detention in any way, shape, or form.

Literally, the Government's stance on padilla was "We can hold him for any amount of time without answering to anyone or showing any party that evidence exists to justify his detention."

How on earth does that pass constitional or rational muster?

Rabbi, here's a link so you can read the law established by the "german saboteur" case for yourself:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0317_0001_ZO.html

Oh, the irony of citing a case that was heard pursuant to the writ to prove that in some bizarre way, habeas does not apply because the executive said so.
  I truly wonder how you go to class and presumably do well.
The issue was whether the president could suspend the writ of habeas corpus for enemy combatants.
Ex parte Quirin establishes this conclusively.
Quote
Accordingly, we conclude that Charge I, on which petitioners were detained for trial by the Military Commission, alleged an offense which the President is authorized to order tried by military commission; that his Order convening the Commission was a lawful order, and that the Commission was lawfully constituted; that the petitioners were held in lawful custody, and did not show cause for their discharge. It follows that the orders of the District Court should be affirmed, and that leave to file petitions for habeas corpus in this Court should be denied.
The court was firm that the president, as commander in chief, has wide latitude to do whatever he feels is necessary.  This is traced in excruciating detail in the opinion.  I'd suggest going back to read it, but I dont think that would help.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,038
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #108 on: February 29, 2008, 11:05:35 AM »
I realize that in coming to this thread after so much silliness I'm probably guilty of thread drift by referring to the original post, but I just thought of something to add regarding the following:
Quote
Beginning in 1999, the government has entered into a series of single-bid contracts with Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR) to build detention camps at undisclosed locations within the United States. The government has also contracted with several companies to build thousands of railcars, some reportedly equipped with shackles, ostensibly to transport detainees.
I knew someone who was active in one of the forums that discusses this sort of thing.  I always told him I thought it was lunacy.  One day we were near one of the facilities that was reportedly being converted into a prisoner-handling facility and he suggested we go take a look.  Sure enough, it was a mostly mothballed rail repair yard.  Most of the buildings were open and ... empty.  Totally devoid of the cages, shackles and other Gulag-style amenities that other posters on this friend's forum claimed to have seen there.  Color me utterly unsurprised.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #109 on: February 29, 2008, 12:53:41 PM »
But you didnt see the really really secret camps.  With the showers and Zyklon B canisters.....
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • Guest
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #110 on: February 29, 2008, 01:02:42 PM »
now ya done it! gonna go and interject reallity into the tinfoil fantasy folks lives  . there will be medication that needs adjusting because of this

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,860
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #111 on: February 29, 2008, 04:30:09 PM »
Then it should have been obvious to the Administration that they couldn't do what they did.
But it wasn't.
Because their legal experts understood what you do not.

Wrong-their legal experts wrote classified memos and then went about engaging in practices that most of the DOJ regarded as blatantly illegal.  At least, that's what the ranking counter-terrorism attorney in America has to say about the subject.

Your problem is that you're presuming the executive came up with a decent legal cover for what it did.  I have no idea why you presume this, but this isn't the first time in history that a government has tried to do something blatantly illegal.  It happens-and the law is pretty clear on this subject, as you can read for yourself.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,860
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #112 on: February 29, 2008, 04:31:50 PM »
GEOJap,
I dont know whether you are being disingenuous or just really don't get it.

Read the language of the bill.  Notice how far that is from "Bush suspended habeas corpus."
Now read it again.
If the difference still eludes you, take up crochet.

For the sake of brevity, "Bush suspended habeas corpus" is a very abbreviated phrase which covers the whole process of a bill becoming law.  That is just too much to describe in one sentence, you're supposed to be able to connect the dots at some point, come on.  Responsibility for that law lies with the administration and congress, like I noted above.  To me, it's like splitting hairs, but I'll give you credit and admit it's not an accurate statement as it's too brief and not descriptive of the whole process.  But still, the law does exist.  It's not fiction.  Habeas corpus does not exist for US citizens in some situations now.  The framers would be rolling over in their graves at this.


A very abbreviated phrase?  Try, a misleading distortion of what actually happened.  As is everything you have posted on this topic so far.
You are right: habeas corpus does not exist for some citizens.  Namely those citizens who are acting as enemy combatants.  Of course, as POWs they never had a right of habeas corpus.  The German saboteur case established that conclusively, and that was well before Bush.
As of now, we have shown that Bush never said the constitution was a piece of paper.  We have shown that Bush did not suspend habeas corpus.  We have shown that Cheney did not commit treason.  A little digging and I am confident we can show that nothing, nada, of what you posted on this is true.

This is a gross misreading of Quirin.  Foreign military combatants out of uniform do not get POW protection, and hence, they face military tribunals to assess their guilt and hand down sentences.  American citizens get civilian trials as long as the civilian court system is operating as usual-that's the law, anyway.

There has never, ever been a rule or law or practice of denying combatants any right to trial whatsoever.  Yet this is exactly what the Bush administration claimed was the case with Padilla-that he had no right to habeas corpus, no right to trial, no right to judicial review of any kind, no right to military tribunal, and no right to challenge his detention in any way, shape, or form.

Literally, the Government's stance on padilla was "We can hold him for any amount of time without answering to anyone or showing any party that evidence exists to justify his detention."

How on earth does that pass constitional or rational muster?

Rabbi, here's a link so you can read the law established by the "german saboteur" case for yourself:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0317_0001_ZO.html

Oh, the irony of citing a case that was heard pursuant to the writ to prove that in some bizarre way, habeas does not apply because the executive said so.
  I truly wonder how you go to class and presumably do well.
The issue was whether the president could suspend the writ of habeas corpus for enemy combatants.
Ex parte Quirin establishes this conclusively.
Quote
Accordingly, we conclude that Charge I, on which petitioners were detained for trial by the Military Commission, alleged an offense which the President is authorized to order tried by military commission; that his Order convening the Commission was a lawful order, and that the Commission was lawfully constituted; that the petitioners were held in lawful custody, and did not show cause for their discharge. It follows that the orders of the District Court should be affirmed, and that leave to file petitions for habeas corpus in this Court should be denied.
The court was firm that the president, as commander in chief, has wide latitude to do whatever he feels is necessary.  This is traced in excruciating detail in the opinion.  I'd suggest going back to read it, but I dont think that would help.

Yeah, except that it was a Habeas Corpus appeal that led to the decision-no right to habeas would've meant no decision.

Ex Parte Quirin says you don't get a civilian trial as an enemy combatant; what you do get is the right to challenge the procedure set up for your military trials...the mechanism for the challenge being habeas corpus, which as you can see in the first page of the decision, is how the appeal reached the Supreme Court in the first place.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #113 on: March 01, 2008, 02:59:01 PM »
And the appeal for habeas corpus was denied.  Because they had no right to habeas corpus, being enemy combatants.  Just like now.
So the legislation merely codified long-standing legal precedent.
So "Bush suspended habeas corpus" is not merely a shorthand for what happened or a legitimate opinion.  It is so far from reality that one must question the sanity of whoever posted it.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,860
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #114 on: March 01, 2008, 03:09:05 PM »
And the appeal for habeas corpus was denied.  Because they had no right to habeas corpus, being enemy combatants.  Just like now.
So the legislation merely codified long-standing legal precedent.
So "Bush suspended habeas corpus" is not merely a shorthand for what happened or a legitimate opinion.  It is so far from reality that one must question the sanity of whoever posted it.

I think I see what the misunderstanding is.  "Habeas corpus" doesn't mean "let him go".  It just means "bring his case before the court." 

Having your case heard by the supreme court on habeas grounds means the writ was granted; otherwise the case couldn't be heard in cases like these.  It would be tossed for lack of jurisdiction.

The court reviewed the detention practice and military tribunals, as is proper under the writ, and determined they were constitutional. 

What the Bush administration tried to do was say "the Court has no right to review this detention, and the detainee has no right whatsoever to challenge it, and the executive does not have to answer to anyone, even an executive tribunal, to justify the detention."

I think you can see from the case that this was obviously not what the supremes sanctioned.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #115 on: March 01, 2008, 05:25:58 PM »
I think you need to make a thorough review of every point you have made here and determine where you went wrong because every single one of them is incorrect.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,860
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #116 on: March 01, 2008, 08:51:47 PM »
I think you need to make a thorough review of every point you have made here and determine where you went wrong because every single one of them is incorrect.

If you don't like the Supreme court's decision, donate to a fund that fights to reverse it.  Contribute to candidates who will amend the constitution to deny the Court the right to review the executive's military detention practices.

Pretending that the law doesn't exist or that anyone who actually reads it must be wrong is not the answer.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • Guest
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #117 on: March 01, 2008, 09:15:50 PM »
did you read that link?
"We cannot say that Congress, in preparing the Fifth and Sixth Amendments, intended to extend trial by jury to the cases of alien or citizen offenders against the law of war otherwise triable by military commission, while withholding it from members of our own armed forces charged with infractions of the Articles of War punishable by death. It is equally inadmissible to construe the Amendments -- [p45] whose primary purpose was to continue unimpaired presentment by grand jury and trial by petit jury in all those cases in which they had been customary -- as either abolishing all trials by military tribunals, save those of the personnel of our own armed forces, or, what in effect comes to the same thing, as imposing on all such tribunals the necessity of proceeding against unlawful enemy belligerents only on presentment and trial by jury. We conclude that the Fifth and Sixth Amendments did not restrict whatever authority was conferred by the Constitution to try offenses against the law of war by military commission, and that petitioners, charged with such an offense not required to be tried by jury at common law, were lawfully placed on trial by the Commission without a jury.

Petitioners, and especially petitioner Haupt, stress the pronouncement of this Court in the Milligan case, supra, p. 121, that the law of war

can never be applied to citizens in states which have upheld the authority of the government, and where the courts are open, and their process unobstructed.

Elsewhere in its opinion, at pp. 118, 121-122 and 131, the Court was at pains to point out that Milligan, a citizen twenty years resident in Indiana, who had never been a resident of any of the states in rebellion, was not an enemy belligerent either entitled to the status of a prisoner of war or subject to the penalties imposed upon unlawful belligerents. We construe the Court's statement as to the inapplicability of the law of war to Milligan's case as having particular reference to the facts before it. From them, the Court concluded that Milligan, not being a part of or associated with the armed forces of the enemy, was a nonbelligerent, not subject to the law of war save as -- in circumstances found not there to be present, and not involved here -- martial law might be constitutionally established.

The Court's opinion is inapplicable to the case presented by the present record. We have no occasion now to define [p46] with meticulous care the ultimate boundaries of the jurisdiction of military tribunals to try persons according to the law of war. It is enough that petitioners here, upon the conceded facts, were plainly within those boundaries, and were held in good faith for trial by military commission, charged with being enemies who, with the purpose of destroying war materials and utilities, entered, or after entry remained in, our territory without uniform -- an offense against the law of war. We hold only that those particular acts constitute an offense against the law of war which the Constitution authorizes to be tried by military commission.

Since the first specification of Charge I sets forth a violation of the law of war, we have no occasion to pass on the adequacy of the second specification of Charge I, or to construe the 81st and 82nd Articles of War for the purpose of ascertaining whether the specifications under Charges II and III allege violations of those Articles, or whether, if so construed, they are constitutional. McNally v. Hill, 293 U.S. 131.

There remains the contention that the President's Order of July 2, 1942, so far as it lays down the procedure to be followed on the trial before the Commission and on the review of its findings and sentence, and the procedure in fact followed by the Commission, are in conflict with Articles of War 38, 43, 46, 50 1/2 and 70. Petitioners argue that their trial by the Commission, for offenses against the law of war and the 81st and 82nd Articles of War, by a procedure which Congress has prohibited would invalidate any conviction which could be obtained against them, and renders their detention for trial likewise unlawful (see McClaughry v. Deming, 186 U.S. 49; United States v. Brown, 206 U.S. 240, 244; Runkle v. United States, 122 U.S. 543, 555-556; Dynes v. Hoover, 20 How. 65, 80-81); that the President's Order prescribes such an unlawful [p47] procedure, and that the secrecy surrounding the trial and all proceedings before the Commission, as well as any review of its decision, will preclude a later opportunity to test the lawfulness of the detention.

Petitioners do not argue, and we do not consider, the question whether the President is compelled by the Articles of War to afford unlawful enemy belligerents a trial before subjecting them to disciplinary measures. Their contention is that, if Congress has authorized their trial by military commission upon the charges preferred -- violations of the law of war and the 81st and 82nd Articles of War -- it has by the Articles of War prescribed the procedure by which the trial is to be conducted, and that, since the President has ordered their trial for such offenses by military commission, they are entitled to claim the protection of the procedure which Congress has commanded shall be controlling.

We need not inquire whether Congress may restrict the power of the Commander in Chief to deal with enemy belligerents. For the Court is unanimous in its conclusion that the Articles in question could not at any stage of the proceedings afford any basis for issuing the writ. But a majority of the full Court are not agreed on the appropriate grounds for decision. Some members of the Court are of opinion that Congress did not intend the Articles of War to govern a Presidential military commission convened for the determination of questions relating to admitted enemy invaders, and that the context of the Articles makes clear that they should not be construed to apply in that class of cases. Others are of the view that -- even though this trial is subject to whatever provisions of the Articles of War Congress has in terms made applicable to "commissions" -- the particular Articles in question, rightly construed, do not foreclose the procedure prescribed by the President or that shown to have been employed [p48] by the Commission, in a trial of offenses against the law of war and the 81st and 82nd Articles of War, by a military commission appointed by the President.

Accordingly, we conclude that Charge I, on which petitioners were detained for trial by the Military Commission, alleged an offense which the President is authorized to order tried by military commission; that his Order convening the Commission was a lawful order, and that the Commission was lawfully constituted; that the petitioners were held in lawful custody, and did not show cause for their discharge. It follows that the orders of the District Court should be affirmed, and that leave to file petitions for habeas corpus in this Court should be denied.




the last sentence in particular?  or were you hoping we wouldn't?

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,860
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #118 on: March 01, 2008, 09:28:20 PM »
cassandrasdaddy,

Yes.

You need to read the whole case-not just the last line, to get the point.

They challenged detention-the Supreme Court took the challenge, and reviewed the laws pertaining to military tribunals.  Found constitutional.  Hence, you stay in the military system if you are an enemy combatant.
Note the scope of the review by the Court:

Quote
The question for decision is whether the detention of petitioners by respondent for trial by Military Commission, appointed by Order of the President of July 2, 1942, [p19] on charges preferred against them purporting to set out their violations of the law of war and of the Articles of War, is in conformity to the laws and Constitution of the United States.

The present administration claimed that the Supreme court has no power to review detention practices for "enemy combatants" whatsoever.  This is not the law-you either have to give a military tribunal, which must meet some standard (what that standard is does not get fleshed out in Quirin) or you have to put them in civilian courts.

What you cannot do, and is not supported by the law, is holding someone with no process whatsoever. 

Here's another quote from the case:

Quote
Presentation of the petition for judicial action is the institution of a suit. Hence, denial by the district court of leave to file the petitions in these causes was the judicial determination of a case or controversy, reviewable on appeal to the Court of Appeals and reviewable here by certiorari.

Which is what I was trying to say-and said inaccurately.  The Supreme Court reviewed the circumstances of detention, as it properly would do in these cases....(and did do in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and Rasul v. Bush).

That's the law, folks.  What the Bush admin did was flatly illegal, which is why it lost in Hamdi and Rasul
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #119 on: March 02, 2008, 03:58:19 AM »
Quote
The present administration claimed that the Supreme court has no power to review detention practices for "enemy combatants" whatsoever.  This is not the law-you either have to give a military tribunal, which must meet some standard (what that standard is does not get fleshed out in Quirin) or you have to put them in civilian courts.
Your inability to read and comprehend is getting boring.  First you write this.  Then you write:
Quote
Which is what I was trying to say-and said inaccurately.  The Supreme Court reviewed the circumstances of detention, as it properly would do in these cases....(and did do in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and Rasul v. Bush).

If what you said in the first paragraph was at all accurate, there would be no second paragraph.  The very fact that the administration argued in the Supreme Court in the cases you mention belies what you write first.
In any case, your reading of ex parte Quirin remains woefully inaccurate.  The Supremes (to rehash this yet again) held the president as commander in chief has the ultimate say so over enemy prisoners.  They upheld Roosevelt's rules because he was CinC, not because the rules otherwise passed muster.
The Bush administrations actions were not "flatly illegal."  If they had been, there wouldn't have been any case.  They were in the gray area (because this war is occurring in a gray area).  The case went to trial and adjudication and there was a decision.
Sorry, the image of Bush and his minions sitting gleefully plotting how to subvert the Constitution just doesn't wash.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,717
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #120 on: March 02, 2008, 07:24:43 AM »
And every so often you have to insert common sense into things...

"Hey, Colonel? See that grinning SOB sitting in the corner? He says that he knows some fellows who are gonna nerve gas the New York Subways, but that we can't do anything about it."

"Yeah? Lemme get on the phone."
 
-15 minutes-

"Okay, sergeant... Abduhl there is about to take a shower..."
 
-2 days later, no-knock raid on a New Jersey motel turns up evidence of a "meth lab" and three induhviduals.

Blog under construction

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • Guest
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #121 on: March 02, 2008, 09:24:55 AM »
How many German & Japanese combatants, lawful or otherwise, were held for the duration of WWII without access to any tribunal of any kind?

Lots-they were called POW's.  They also got care packages from home, games, and large yards to exercise in.  And they were guaranteed released at the end of the war, since they weren't liable for any crime.  A prisoner of war cannot be punished.

But the unlawful ones faced military tribunals-as in the case above.


your research ignore the thousands of internees   who interestingly enough were draftable if citizens. and who aquitted themselves quite well in the european theatre.  had something to prove i think and they dida decent job of demonstating their loyalty to the usa.  i still wait for an example of that from the muslim community

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,860
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #122 on: March 04, 2008, 01:04:00 AM »
How many German & Japanese combatants, lawful or otherwise, were held for the duration of WWII without access to any tribunal of any kind?

Lots-they were called POW's.  They also got care packages from home, games, and large yards to exercise in.  And they were guaranteed released at the end of the war, since they weren't liable for any crime.  A prisoner of war cannot be punished.

But the unlawful ones faced military tribunals-as in the case above.


your research ignore the thousands of internees   who interestingly enough were draftable if citizens. and who aquitted themselves quite well in the european theatre.  had something to prove i think and they dida decent job of demonstating their loyalty to the usa.  i still wait for an example of that from the muslim community

No it does not-the Internees were covered by Korematsu, which has long since gone down with Dred Scott as one of the worst decisions ever put out by the Supremes.

The hteory in Korematsu was internment, like POW's, until the end of hostilities-not criminal punishment or lifetime imprisonment with no allegations of guilt.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,860
Re: Rule by fear or rule by law?
« Reply #123 on: March 04, 2008, 01:08:47 AM »
Quote
The present administration claimed that the Supreme court has no power to review detention practices for "enemy combatants" whatsoever.  This is not the law-you either have to give a military tribunal, which must meet some standard (what that standard is does not get fleshed out in Quirin) or you have to put them in civilian courts.
Your inability to read and comprehend is getting boring.  First you write this.  Then you write:
Quote
Which is what I was trying to say-and said inaccurately.  The Supreme Court reviewed the circumstances of detention, as it properly would do in these cases....(and did do in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and Rasul v. Bush).

If what you said in the first paragraph was at all accurate, there would be no second paragraph.  The very fact that the administration argued in the Supreme Court in the cases you mention belies what you write first.
In any case, your reading of ex parte Quirin remains woefully inaccurate.  The Supremes (to rehash this yet again) held the president as commander in chief has the ultimate say so over enemy prisoners.  They upheld Roosevelt's rules because he was CinC, not because the rules otherwise passed muster.
The Bush administrations actions were not "flatly illegal."  If they had been, there wouldn't have been any case.  They were in the gray area (because this war is occurring in a gray area).  The case went to trial and adjudication and there was a decision.
Sorry, the image of Bush and his minions sitting gleefully plotting how to subvert the Constitution just doesn't wash.

Rabbi, Reading is essential, as you point out.  I quote from the case:

Quote
We conclude that the Fifth and Sixth Amendments did not restrict whatever authority was conferred by the Constitution to try offenses against the law of war by military commission, and that petitioners, charged with such an offense not required to be tried by jury at common law, were lawfully placed on trial by the Commission without a jury.

Then:
Quote
Petitioners do not argue, and we do not consider, the question whether the President is compelled by the Articles of War to afford unlawful enemy belligerents a trial before subjecting them to disciplinary measures.

This is why the Bush administration lost Rasul and Hamdi-because the "german saboteur case" which you apparently still have no read does not provide legal grounds for indefinite detention without any sort of trial or process.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."