Author Topic: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site  (Read 102877 times)

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #225 on: August 20, 2010, 10:25:03 AM »
Have you any evidence that this mosque is:
a) funded by terrorist backers?
b) dedicated to celebrating Islam's victory over the Great Satan?

They are basing that on the title of his book, as titled in the Muslim world:
Seruan Azan Dari Puing WTC: Dakwah Islam di Jantung Amerika Pasca 9/11

Dakwah  is being interpreted to Dawah, which is then being explained as Conquest. (Take wiki for what it's worth, but thats not the wiki translation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawah)
Also, the whole "cordoba" project thing is being interpreted as some code for conquest, as it is a muslim word for an old empire that used to encompass the west.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #226 on: August 20, 2010, 11:34:49 AM »
Have you any evidence that this mosque is:
a) funded by terrorist backers?
b) dedicated to celebrating Islam's victory over the Great Satan?

a) He won't say who is funding him.  Odds are (given past funding patterns) is that he is Saudi-backed.

Also, he is unwilling to go on the record against Hamas and other terrorist organizations.  Typical "moderate*" Muslim mealy-mouthed dissembling

b) Cordoba was the capital of the Islamic caliphate (Al-Andalus) in the Iberian peninsula. 

An analog would be to drop a church in Riyadh or Istanbul and name it "New Constantinople."  Nah, that wouldn't be provocative, not a bit.


* As opposed to actual moderates.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #227 on: August 20, 2010, 11:46:08 AM »
FTR, the great mosque of Cordoba built by the Umayyads was built on the site of the Visigothic church of St Vincent afte rthey were pushed out of hte middle east...where they had bult the great mosque of Damascus on the site of a Christian of John the Baptist. 

And of course, who can forget the Hagia Sophia, a Chritian church dedicated to the second person of the Trinity, which was turned int oa mosque by the Turks.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #228 on: August 20, 2010, 04:12:34 PM »

And of course, who can forget the Hagia Sophia, a Chritian church dedicated to the second person of the Trinity, which was turned int oa mosque by the Turks.
And the Al Aqsa mosque on top of the Temple Mount.

Islam has quite a tradition of building mosques at the sites of their conquests.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 04:24:52 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #229 on: August 20, 2010, 04:31:14 PM »
And the Al Aqsa mosque on top of the Temple Mount.

Islam has quite a tradition of building mosques at the sites of their conquests.



al asqua?  the one that the israelis control access to?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #230 on: August 20, 2010, 05:21:36 PM »

al asqua?  the one that the israelis control access to?

The one that the Pali's control.  The one that they do "archaeological" digs with CAT wheel loaders on, destroying archaeological finds, and haul off the dirt and archaeological artifacts in dump trucks.

Savages.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #231 on: August 20, 2010, 05:24:05 PM »
Quote
al asqua?  the one that the israelis control access to?

The mosque was built prior to the year 675, back when there was a Palestine, and well before there was an Israel. I don't think Netenyahu had a lot of say about zoning back then.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #232 on: August 20, 2010, 05:26:52 PM »
Temple Mount relics saved from garbage
http://www.echad.info/sifting/media/jpost14-4-05.html

Temple Mount Sifting Project
http://templemount.wordpress.com/

The mosque was built prior to the year 675, back when there was a Palestine, and well before there was an Israel. I don't think Netenyahu had a lot of say about zoning back then.

Just blame it on Bush.

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #233 on: August 20, 2010, 05:27:38 PM »
Bill Whittle Godwin's Islam

...well, sort of, to a point. He fleshes out the position counter the GZM quite well, and it would almost seem as if he has been reading this thread based on the Shinto shrine comment. Rather than expend the energy to create a long body of writing regarding my personal stance that will simply be ignored by the target audience in favor of tolerance-lemming-ism conveyed through perfidious and improvident obiter dictum, I will leave it to Mister Whittle to elucidate this matter.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #235 on: August 20, 2010, 05:29:21 PM »
Rather than expend the energy to create a long body of writing regarding my personal stance that will simply be ignored by the target audience in favor of tolerance-lemming-ism conveyed through perfidious and improvident obiter dictum the constitution, I will leave it to Mister Whittle to elucidate this matter.


ftfy
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #236 on: August 20, 2010, 05:33:03 PM »
Rather than expend the energy to create a long body of writing regarding my personal stance that will simply be ignored by the target audience in favor of tolerance-lemming-ism conveyed through perfidious and improvident obiter dictum the constitution, I will leave it to Mister Whittle to elucidate this matter.


ftfy

Remember, you got that part wrong earlier.

Repetition does not fix a broken argument.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,711
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #237 on: August 20, 2010, 05:38:05 PM »
An analog would be to drop a church in Riyadh or Istanbul and name it "New Constantinople."  Nah, that wouldn't be provocative, not a bit.
I personally think "The Cathedral of the New Crusade" would be a closer analog . . .
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,505
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #238 on: August 20, 2010, 05:46:42 PM »
The mosque was built prior to the year 675, back when there was a Palestine, and well before there was an Israel.

I know what you're trying to say, but you have to admit that sounds a little funny.  :laugh:
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #239 on: August 20, 2010, 07:21:13 PM »
Some of the more recent posts are starting to take a personal bent.  Knock it off, or I'm getting out the fork.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #240 on: August 20, 2010, 08:05:01 PM »
We've got that pesky 1st Amendment thing out there to deal with though don't we.

My personal stand is that I don't care about the mosque or where they build it but there are a few issues related to this mess that do lean toward twisting my knickers just a bit.

On the one hand the .gov is dragging it's heels with the Greek Orthodox Church REbuild and at the same time seemingly fast tracking a NEW mosque in the same area.
On the other hand our state department is at least in part footing the bill for a (radical?)Imam to take a rah rah tour the mideast to suppor the new mosque.
It begins to sound like someone is playing favorites.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Nitrogen

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Who could it be?
    • @c0t0d0s2 / Twitter.
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #241 on: August 20, 2010, 08:09:33 PM »
Nobody's putting roadblocks up in the church's rebuilding.

Question is wether or not they'll get public money to do so or not, at least that's my understanding.

They had a deal with the port authority that they couldn't work out terms with.
יזכר לא עד פעם
Remember. Never Again.
What does it mean to be an American?  Have you forgotten? | http://youtu.be/0w03tJ3IkrM

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #242 on: August 20, 2010, 08:12:53 PM »
yea the greeks wanted 45 mill of gov money to build a place 7 times the size of what they had
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #243 on: August 20, 2010, 08:39:42 PM »
Bill Whittle Godwin's Islam

...well, sort of, to a point. He fleshes out the position counter the GZM quite well, and it would almost seem as if he has been reading this thread based on the Shinto shrine comment. Rather than expend the energy to create a long body of writing regarding my personal stance that will simply be ignored by the target audience in favor of tolerance-lemming-ism conveyed through perfidious and improvident obiter dictum, I will leave it to Mister Whittle to elucidate this matter.

1. And yet, the Nazis were wrong. The Japanese were wrong. Their bet on British and American 'weakness' broke them only a complete destruction of everything they stood for. The Americans not only won WW2, but killed four Japanese soldiers for every American lost on both fronts, then destroyed Japanese industry and merchant fleet, and then nuked Japan. Twice. The people who were actually comitting civilizational suicide were not the 'appeasers', but the Nazis and Japanese.

2. To equate the Uyghur-Chinese conflict [does he realize the PRC are engaged in a genocide of the Uyghurs? That the PRC are monsters who steal the kidneys of political dissidents for re-sale?] with the struggle of the Islamic fascists with the West is [another] moral failure of Whittle's.

3. Whittle equates ALL Chechen fighters with Radical Islam. General Dudaev would have probably disagreed.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #244 on: August 20, 2010, 09:20:16 PM »
1. And yet, the Nazis were wrong. The Japanese were wrong. Their bet on British and American 'weakness' broke them only a complete destruction of everything they stood for. The Americans not only won WW2, but killed four Japanese soldiers for every American lost on both fronts, then destroyed Japanese industry and merchant fleet, and then nuked Japan. Twice. The people who were actually comitting civilizational suicide were not the 'appeasers', but the Nazis and Japanese.

That the Nazis and Imperial Japanese were ultimately wrong in their wager on British and American weakness is beside the point. Mr. Whittle's analysis is that the appearance of weakness and ambivalence to the plight of others, demonstrated openly as unmoderated "tolerance," which he posits as actually a facade for cowardice and self-loathing, was to invite increasing predations and atrocities from those who would hold the accumulation of power and wealth above a basic sense of right and wrong combined with a total lack of empathy for their fellow humans. The Nazi's and Imperial Japanese failed not because this appearance didn't genuinely exist amongst some of the more prominent and public figures of each nation, but because such a state of mind had not fully permeated the societies and governments of Britain and the United States.

I'll address your second and third points later tonight when I get to work and have more time to review them.

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #245 on: August 20, 2010, 11:23:45 PM »
I often post links to articles by Victor Davis Hanson on this forum. As a historian, he puts matters into perspectives that other conservative writers do not. Today's column does a good job of distilling the points made in this thread by opponents of the mosque, and makes some that I haven't yet seen. His theory about Imam Rauf's strategy is not provable, but is certainly interesting.

It's a short column, which you can read here.


roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #246 on: August 21, 2010, 12:02:32 AM »
1. And yet, the Nazis were wrong. The Japanese were wrong. Their bet on British and American 'weakness' broke them only a complete destruction of everything they stood for. The Americans not only won WW2, but killed four Japanese soldiers for every American lost on both fronts, then destroyed Japanese industry and merchant fleet, and then nuked Japan. Twice. The people who were actually comitting civilizational suicide were


As kgbs wrote, interesting, but beside the point.  But...what is APS for, if not for such digressions?  :P

Yep, we gave much better than we got Loss Exchange Ratio-wise (LER = num_enemy_killed / num_friendly_killed) vs the Japanese.

Not so much vis a vis the Germans, who had LERs greater than 1.0 vs every other opponent they fought.  Luckily, we could equip LOT of Americans to die in numerous Sherman tanks for every Kraut tank and we were able to do the same "favor" for allies to ensure a target-rich environment for the Germans...until they ran out of fuel, ammo, or were just overrun.  We were also able to make sure the Russians could fight the war and feed themselves. 

Oh, and hte Germans were able to kill more of us than theirs that got killed, even though we had cracked a goodly portion of their encrypted commo.  Who knows how many more Americans would have died in Europe without such intel?

And, why don't we toss in the not-so-well known fact that most of the German army was horse-drawn.  Ours (American) was unique in that our logistics were entirely mechanized.

I think America was fortunate (Divine Intervention magnitude fortune) that Germany was run by a partially-mad man with a terrible sense of timing for taking on the Russians who foolishly declared war on America when he didn't have to.  If Germany had to deal with only one front at a time, I think it would have taken atom bombs to beat them...if they didn't wind up developing them, too, under reduced pressure they'd have with just one front.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #247 on: August 21, 2010, 12:32:27 AM »
The issue is not that of LERs.

The point is that Germany was never capable of winning the war it declared. There were too many Russians (whose tactics were NOT as deficient as commonly believed), America was too powerful and Britain was too much of an island.

And yet Germany was far more menacing and effective of an enemy than anything the modern Islamic Fascists can even begin to pose.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #248 on: August 21, 2010, 01:37:43 AM »
And yet Germany was far more menacing and effective of an enemy than anything the modern Islamic Fascists can even begin to pose.

Except now you are comparing two forces with entirely different battle doctrines. The Nazi Wehrmacht was designed to fight a combination attrition/maneuver warfare, where as any likely assembly of Islam-oriented fighting groups are largely oriented to guerrilla or asymmetrical warfare, except, and this is what differentiates them from others practitioners of asymmetrical warfare, such as Vietnam or Finland, is that these groups act independent of national alliance or official sponsorship limiting retributive counter attacks aimed at depriving them of war material, sanctuary or recruitment base. If it was still 1950 would you have declared that Vietnam was no Germany and thus could offer no credible resistance to the United States? Even with the hinderance of having a declared nation and it's associated infrastructure that could be attacked that tiny nation met the U.S.'s newly developing doctrine of maneuver warfare with one of asymmetrical warfare and despite disproportionately heavy losses managed to stymie our political objectives there for eight years until we simply got tired of throwing blood and wealth into the grinder. It is the foolish man who underestimates his enemies.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site
« Reply #249 on: August 21, 2010, 01:46:49 AM »
The problem is - again - that I am not advocating appeasement of the Radical Muslims, surrender to the Radical Muslims, or anything like it.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner