Egypt: What's happening?

[Scout26]

RKL,

I think the fact that the Israelis vehemently deny that they have nukes and aren't afraid to use them to turn several, if not all Arab et al, capitals and large cities into glass parking lots, have done more to stay the hand of the Arab nations arrayed against Israel. 

Sadat and Egypt made peace with Israel for piles of US Cash. 

Jordan did it for money as well, trade and piles of US Cash.

The former Iraq, and the rest of the Arabian peninsula now just make anti-Israel noises to keep the screaming beards happy.  Lots o' business being done on the QT between them. 

Syria lives in fear becoming the largest and nearest glass parking lot.

Iran is run by the screaming beards, hence their whole "peaceful" nuclear project, which if their allowed to complete will produce a butcher's bill like the world has never seen.   


History has shown that liberal democracy's tend not to attack one another.   

[De Selby]

Let me be clear.

Do you feel that Israel cannot exist unless the populations of Syria, Egypt, and several other countries - at the very least, 100 million people - are suppressed in dictatorships, and that should there be fair elections in these countries, loathsome dirtbags would come to power that would proceed to prepare for another war?

Is it effectively your argument?

Yes - that is exactly my argument.  The populations of these countries do not accept; rather, they vehemently reject the idea that there can be a state for mainly Europeans and Russians in the middle east based solely on their religious identity; they view Israel as a colony of Europeans created by European powers, not as an organic entity that grew up in the middle east.

In any middle east where democracy is the order of the day, there will not be a single population that votes in favour of Israel or that votes even to be neutral to its existence.  It is a national idea that is rejected by the entire population that surrounds it and that lived within its borders before its establishment.

[longeyes]

We could call that ignorant tribalism, but let's just call it racial and ethnic bigotry and get it over with.

Without the Americans and British where would the Middle East be today?

Egypt can't live off the Pyramids forever, especially if they don't much like "foreign" tourists.

All of what's going on now can only end one way, and I hope the death-impulse embedded so deeply in Muslim culture doesn't prevail.

[MicroBalrog]

Yes - that is exactly my argument.  The populations of these countries do not accept; rather, they vehemently reject the idea that there can be a state for mainly Europeans and Russians in the middle east based solely on their religious identity; they view Israel as a colony of Europeans created by European powers, not as an organic entity that grew up in the middle east.

Forgetting entiletly the fact that Zionism is based on the ethnic-national idea of Jews, not the religious idea mainly -

If what you believed were true, then Israel would not would deserve to exist. Even if it ceded every yard of the Occupied territories to the Palestinians (as I do believe it shoul), Israel would not deserve to exist if the cost of its existence were the perrenial enslavement of a 100 million people.

[roo_ster]

Forgetting entiletly the fact that Zionism is based on the ethnic-national idea of Jews, not the religious idea mainly -

If what you believed were true, then Israel would not would deserve to exist. Even if it ceded every yard of the Occupied territories to the Palestinians (as I do believe it shoul), Israel would not deserve to exist if the cost of its existence were the perrenial enslavement of a 100 million people.

Oh, horse manure.

If those 100 million people are a bunch of hateful, sand-poundingly ignorant homicidally-bent ethnic bigots, I think keeping such brutes in check by one of their own who is even more brutish is a solution.  So is beating them soundly on the field of battle and humiliating their democratically elected leaders.

If Israel were magically transported to the 1930s US South, we wouldn't make excuses for the majority's bigotry & hostility.  "If it requires Federal troops to keep them in check and Federal judges to take over their school systems, black children do not deserve to exist."  Yeah, that pig's gonna fly.

[MicroBalrog]

If the only thing these despots were violating was the right of screaming beards to be machinegunned en masse by the IDF, that wouldn't be a problem. That has never been the case.

[bedlamite]

[De Selby]

Forgetting entiletly the fact that Zionism is based on the ethnic-national idea of Jews, not the religious idea mainly -

If what you believed were true, then Israel would not would deserve to exist. Even if it ceded every yard of the Occupied territories to the Palestinians (as I do believe it shoul), Israel would not deserve to exist if the cost of its existence were the perrenial enslavement of a 100 million people.

I don't think deserve has anything to do with it - no state deserves anything; it's an administrative unit that has value only insofar as it protects the rights of individuals.

The present condition is not inherently necessary in Israel's existence; it's been your leaders' foreign policy choices since 1948 that made it this way.  Instead of compromise and integration, they chose expansion and aggressive deterrence.  The result is that yes, Israel absolutely cannot exist without dictatorship in all of its neighbours.  It is too unpopular at this stage to do anything else.

[seeker_two]

If Jon Lovitz was Egyptian....

[De Selby]

Oh, horse manure.

If those 100 million people are a bunch of hateful, sand-poundingly ignorant homicidally-bent ethnic bigots, I think keeping such brutes in check by one of their own who is even more brutish is a solution.  So is beating them soundly on the field of battle and humiliating their democratically elected leaders.

If Israel were magically transported to the 1930s US South, we wouldn't make excuses for the majority's bigotry & hostility.  "If it requires Federal troops to keep them in check and Federal judges to take over their school systems, black children do not deserve to exist."  Yeah, that pig's gonna fly.

Yeah the problem is that the analogy doesn't even remotely fit - Arab opposition has more to do with immigration and decision making from Europe by Europeans in the age of anti-colonialism than it does with race or religion. 

[TommyGunn]

.......  Instead of compromise and integration, they chose expansion and aggressive deterrence.  The result is that yes, Israel absolutely cannot exist without dictatorship in all of its neighbours.  It is too unpopular at this stage to do anything else.

"Compromise and integration?"   Israel is surrounded by neighbors who, after she was established, promptly attacked her and tried to destroy her, multiple times. 
You think they can "integrate" with them in that situation?
I'd choose "aggressive deterence" in that condition too -- you'd be insane not to if you wanted to survive.



You do live on the planet Earth ....... right?

[De Selby]

"Compromise and integration?"   Israel is surrounded by neighbors who, after she was established, promptly attacked her and tried to destroy her, multiple times. 
You think they can "integrate" with them in that situation?
I'd choose "aggressive deterence" in that condition too -- you'd be insane not to if you wanted to survive.



You do live on the planet Earth ....... right?

Well, you can believe that if you want to, but look at where Israel is at now - Mubarak going down is literally the end of that state.  And when they're forced to make arrangements, you can be sure that those arrangements will be on the most unfavourable terms possible.

In 50 years time, mark my words, no one will be calling the former Israel's policies since 48 smart. 

[TommyGunn]

It's established history.  Find a history book and read it.

[Monkeyleg]

Well, you can believe that if you want to, but look at where Israel is at now - Mubarak going down is literally the end of that state.  And when they're forced to make arrangements, you can be sure that those arrangements will be on the most unfavourable terms possible.

In 50 years time, mark my words, no one will be calling the former Israel's policies since 48 smart.

Everyone in the world--including everyone in Egypt--is wondering what's going to happen in the next few months in that country, and in the next few years in the region. Since you seem to be the only one who knows the future, I think you owe it to the world to at least give the president a call.

[MicroBalrog]

I do not, of course, think De Selby is correct. I think that -if the Egyptians proceed to develop a democracy, their people will proceed to NOT wage a war on us.

[Scout26]

Exactly.

As history as shown, liberal (in the classical sense) democracies tend NOT to wage war on each other.

Liberal democracies do not vote to go to war, unless attacked.

[RocketMan]

My fear is that any new democracy will last only long enough for the people to vote the "screaming beard" types into power.  After that, Egypt will be a democracy only in a theoretical sense.  Then, all bets will be off and Israel will be in real trouble.

[makattak]

Yes - that is exactly my argument.  The populations of these countries do not accept; rather, they vehemently reject the idea that there can be a state for mainly Europeans and Russians in the middle east based solely on their religious identity; they view Israel as a colony of Europeans created by European powers, not as an organic entity that grew up in the middle east.

In any middle east where democracy is the order of the day, there will not be a single population that votes in favour of Israel or that votes even to be neutral to its existence.  It is a national idea that is rejected by the entire population that surrounds it and that lived within its borders before its establishment.

Wow. Here's an example of someone who takes Helen Thomas seriously. I mean, I knew theoretically that they existed, but to read it firsthand is impressive.

[Monkeyleg]

Wow. Here's an example of someone who takes Helen Thomas seriously. I mean, I knew theoretically that they existed, but to read it firsthand is impressive.

Why? Helen Thomas (and De Selby) just give voice to the anti-semitism that most on the far left believe in, but don't talk about.

[longeyes]

In 50 years time, mark my words, no one will be calling the former Israel's policies since 48 smart.

I'll take that bet and raise you, predicated on a worst case scenario: In 50 years, mark my words, people will be wondering what that thing called Islam was.

If you believe that Israel is going to go extinct without exacting Biblical-level revenge, you have been doing too many dervish-twirls.

[De Selby]

Why? Helen Thomas (and De Selby) just give voice to the anti-semitism that most on the far left believe in, but don't talk about.

Please explain how it's anti-semitic to point out that most Arabs do not accept the legitimacy of Israel, and wouldn't, given the chance, vote for governments that support it.  I think that's a relatively well established fact, supported more so by the daily anti-Israel chants in Egypt.

[Monkeyleg]

Please point out to me a post of yours that has anything charitable to say about Israel.

[De Selby]

Please point out to me a post of yours that has anything charitable to say about Israel.

What does that have to do with this? I oppose Israeli policies and have stated repeatedly on this board that a negotiated solution with the Palestinians (like what Micro alludes to in this very thread) would be the best case scenario. 

Unfortunately, these revolutions are a sign that the moment for such a solution is long gone.  This is the result of Israel adopting policies like the ones that get supported here all the time - beat the Arabs into submission and they'll leave it alone.  Wrong.  Now we'll have to contend with the results of 60 years of policy based entirely on force. 

What specific form the new governments will take is certainly in doubt; what is not in doubt is that no government will rise to power in Arab democratic country that supports peace and cooperation with Israel. 

[longeyes]

We come back to one inescapable fact: what's wrong with Muslim societies in the Middle East (and everywhere) is not the fault, even remotely, of Israel.  Muslims want to blame Israel and the Jews for what's wrong with their own cultures.  Were Israel to disappear tomorrow, the Middle East would remain the victim of its own ways and beliefs.

[French G.]

I do not, of course, think De Selby is correct. I think that -if the Egyptians proceed to develop a democracy, their people will proceed to NOT wage a war on us.

I'm no expert but I have stayed on a floating Holiday Inn that transited the Suez more than a few times. Christ, they have almost finished clearing all the wreckage out of the ditch since their last war. A democratic Egypt would probably lynch whoever decided to start the next one.