Amish Mugshots

[BlueStarLizzard]

That's what I was thinking, but I couldn't think of a diplomatic way to say it. The word "inbreeding" or "inbred" immediately connotes "incest" to a lot of people, which I think the Amish are no more guilty of than the general population.

I'll bet the have other, less obvious genetic anomallies in abundance as well.

[Perd Hapley]

Feet and inches are base 12, not base 10.   Bad fistful, no cookie.

 

I'll bet the have other, less obvious genetic anomallies in abundance as well.

Well, yeah. They are all born without electricity. 

[Harold Tuttle]

6 foot is 72 inches

those amish are ~ 5' 3" - 5' 6"

so whats the libertarian take on amish objecting to orange safety triangles on 12 mph buggies at night?



The eight men were busted for refusing to attach bright orange safety triangles on the back of their traditional horse drawn carriages.


The men, named as David Zook, Eli Zook, Menno Zook, Mose Yoder, Levi Hostetler, Jacob Gingerich, Emanuel Yoder and Danny Byler, cited their religious beliefs for refusing to obey the order.

They all belong to the ultraconservative Old Order Swartzentruber Amish sect in western Kentucky and said the bright orange reflector goes against their modesty codes and that they would rather be hauled behind bars than violate their beliefs.

The men appeared in court Monday and after they refused to pay court-imposed fines they were sentenced to between three and 10 days in jail.

[birdman]

My take is that it has nothing to do with libertarianism.  They were operating their buggy on a public road, that road requires certain safety requirements to be met.  Those requirements are imposed on all VEHICLES, not individuals.  Religion has nothing to do with it.  They did not have to use that road (the construction of which also violates their religious beliefs) if they did not want to, they could have found another means or path to their destination, or another destination, but to take benefit of, without conforming to rules of, a public service for reason of religion is a flawed logical argument...it's all, or nothing.

Now, in terms of a personal responsibility, libertarian standpoint, there is nothing that says civil violations for compromising public safety isn't valid, all societies need rules.  Are those violations civil in nature? Yes, and so are other vehicle-safety related fines.  The CRIMINAL act committed was refusal to pay the fine, and thus effectively claiming the social contract they DID enter into (use of road in exchange for known safety requirements) wasnt valid due to their religion, and even more so, the legal system they also are members of (by being US citizens, and thus enjoying those benefits) also is secondary to their religious beliefs.

Personally, I think this turned out just right...first these Amish citing religion trumps regulation, next step, sharia law.  It pains me to link the two, but in this case, the religion-supersedes-law is common to both these Amish, and islamists. 

[GigaBuist]

Actually, i'll bet the hight (and I know the dwarfism) is related to genes rather then food.

They have a smaller gene pool and rarely take outsiders into their ranks.

Yep.  They're basically one big happy family that's genetically segregated from the rest of the US population. That topic hit the news cycle maybe 6-7 years ago when I was single, and basically sporting an Amish type beard myself, so I joked a few times about helping them out with their genetic diversity problem.  For what it's worth I'm still up for the idea, but I suspect my wife would disapprove.

[makattak]

"I'm guessing they don't have the same caloric intake most Americans do. Likely that's part of the reason they are not very tall."

No.

You put an average Amish dietary intake into one of us and we'll balloon like mad.

Amish men generally take in a TON of calories, but they're burned off by hard manual labor. Sort of like the crab fishermen in Deadliest Catch. It's nothing for them to chow down 5,000 calories at a meal, and then go right out and burn it off.

Hmmm... very good point. Perhaps it's a matter of lack of excess calories?

[freakazoid]

they could have found another means or path to their destination

I highly doubt that.

or another destination

Seriously? 

there is nothing that says civil violations for compromising public safety isn't valid

What safety was compromised? It is kind of hard to not see them, unless they was moving at night, or on an interstate where you can generally drive faster.

all societies need rules.

Simply needing rules doesn't mean that any and all rules are ok.

the legal system they also are members of (by being US citizens, and thus enjoying those benefits)

What benefits are they enjoying being a US citizen while Amish? Are they out collecting welfare or social security?

[MrsSmith]

What benefits are they enjoying being a US citizen while Amish? Are they out collecting welfare or social security?

Constitutional rights. In which, the right to refuse to adhere to public safety laws is not mentioned. There were better ways to handle this, such as petitioning for a change in the law.

I don't always wear a seatbelt. If/when I get a ticket, I pay it, because I broke the law, even if it's a law I don't agree with. If I wanted to fight it, I'd work to amend the law. 

[vaskidmark]

Constitutional rights. In which, the right to refuse to adhere to public safety laws is not mentioned. There were better ways to handle this, such as petitioning for a change in the law.

I don't always wear a seatbelt. If/when I get a ticket, I pay it, because I broke the law, even if it's a law I don't agree with. If I wanted to fight it, I'd work to amend the law. 

This.

Because other states have in fact resolved the issue to the mutual satisfaction of both/all sides.

I have no idea who was being more stubborn, but someone took the position that there would be no compromise.  My money is not on the prosecutor.

stay safe.

[birdman]

I highly doubt that. Doesn't matter if you do, my point is they have a choice to follow the rules, or choose a different path, while working to change the rules

Seriously?  . Yes, see above

What safety was compromised? It is kind of hard to not see them, unless they was moving at night, or on an interstate where you can generally drive faster.  Was it at night?  If not, we rewire the same high visibility warning signage on farm equipment, slow heavy load trailers, construction equipment, etc.  Not to protect just those, but to protected other drivers

Simply needing rules doesn't mean that any and all rules are ok.  I didn't say ANYTHING to that effect

What benefits are they enjoying being a US citizen while Amish? Are they out collecting welfare or social security?  Gee, I don't know, freedom of religion, protection of life, liberty and property, rule of law, all of which paid for by taxes (which they pay) and guaranteed by citizenship (which they have).  Thus entering a contract with the country, and subjecting themselves to it's laws (including the right to petition for changes)

[freakazoid]

freedom of religion,

lol, this whole thing is about them practicing there religion.

all of which paid for by taxes

So you have to pay "taxes" to keep the government from interfering with your God given rights?

Constitutional rights

Constitutional rights are God given rights, not something that is given to us by the government.

There were better ways to handle this, such as petitioning for a change in the law.

While petitioning is all fine and dandy, in the meantime they are still having there religious beliefs violated merely because they choose to live outside the government.

I don't always wear a seatbelt. If/when I get a ticket, I pay it, because I broke the law, even if it's a law I don't agree with. If I wanted to fight it, I'd work to amend the law. 

So if the government decided to ban the private ownership of gold again, would it be ok for people to not turn in any gold they owned? Sure they could petition to overturn the law but once they turn in any gold the damage is already done even if it gets overturned.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

they won't petition a gov they don't believe in  its a dichotomy

[birdman]

You are way missing/misinterpreting my point, and misinterpreting the constitution and our government.

Rather than post a long winded response (because I'm tired, and really don't care about your opinion, nor your logical inconsistencies in attacking mine), I'm just going to ignore this thread.  Have fun.

[freakazoid]

I'm just going to ignore this thread.  Have fun.

[Balog]

I dunno, I think he coulda done better smacking you down... :p

[freakazoid]

Probably, but I too shall retire from this debate. Therefore leaving me undisputed reigning champion with no chance of being knocked down.  

[Perd Hapley]

Constitutional rights are God given rights, not something that is given to us by the government.

Of course, but government secures your rights by enforcing laws against criminals. These people enjoy that protection.

While petitioning is all fine and dandy, in the meantime they are still having there religious beliefs violated merely because they choose to live outside the government.

You mean they choose to break the law? Yeah, there are consequences for that. Their religion may not allow them to use orange safety thingies, but it doesn't require them to use public thoroughfares, either. 

[Harold Tuttle]

what happens when the state improves "their Valley" with roadways for the cars and trucks, and they can no longer travel between their farms?

[Doggy Daddy]

what happens when the state improves "their Valley" with roadways for the cars and trucks, and they can no longer travel between their farms?

They construct an extensive tunnel network, lit by coal oil lanterns, and become The Mole Amish People.

[Pharmacology]

5,000 calories at a meal, and then go right out and burn it off.

LOLWUT
Lance Armstrong might burn that many calories in a section of the tour d' france, but Jebediah sure as heck ain't gonna eat it in one meal.

[mtnbkr]

Have you seen what gets served in Amish country?  Lard is a condiment.

Also, judging by my heartrate monitor, I burn about 1000 calories per 25 miles of biking at a sedate 15mph.  Therefore, I burn 4k calories in a 100 mile ride.  I'm sure Lance burns quite a bit more since he's pushing harder and riding longer distances in most legs of the Tour.

Chris

[freakazoid]

Retract:

but I too shall retire from this debate.

what happens when the state improves "their Valley" with roadways for the cars and trucks, and they can no longer travel between their farms?

Well they can always petition don't ya know. Exactly how they would petition I don't know, don't think to many have computers or phones. Do they use mail? And what exactly they are supposed to do in the meantime till it gets resolved, if ever. But hey, it's the law so it must be obeyed.

Unretract:

but I too shall retire from this debate.

[roo_ster]

LOLWUT
Lance Armstrong might burn that many calories in a section of the tour d' france, but Jebediah sure as heck ain't gonna eat it in one meal.

Believe it.  Both as to expenditure and consumption.  On my grandparents' farm, the big meal of the day was lunch/dinner.  Second biggest was breakfast and smallest was supper in the evening.

One of the best compliments I ever received was from a landscaping architect/foreman from Pennsylvania: "You work like the Amish." 

[Pharmacology]

Hrm.

So, let's assume that a 30 year old, 63 inch man weighing 150 pounds works as hard as possible for 16 hours straight, and then sleeps for 8 hours.

He'll have used 8000 kcal.   1,600kcal  just spent on being alive,  while about 6K  of those kcal are used for the strenuous activity.


While that's quite a bit,  it's certainly not 5,000 kcal / meal

[Balog]

Hrm.

So, let's assume that a 30 year old, 63 inch man weighing 150 pounds works as hard as possible for 16 hours straight, and then sleeps for 8 hours.

He'll have used 8000 kcal.   1,600kcal  just spent on being alive,  while about 6K  of those kcal are used for the strenuous activity.


While that's quite a bit,  it's certainly not 5,000 kcal / meal

Citation? Also, 8,000 kcal would be 800,000 calories so I assume that k is there by mistake.