Snowden: Hero or Criminal?

[MillCreek]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2013/06/18/192996800/Its-Christmas-in-June-China-Revels-In-NSA-Leaks-Story

The PRC Government certainly seems to have enjoyed Mr. Snowden's efforts.

[Hawkmoon]

i saw that   very interesting
why do you suppose the kid hada run?  if these folks could stay

They didn't stay. They are "former" NSA officials. And at least one of them was prosecuted persecuted.

[AZRedhawk44]

This. Still no discussion of this. Arguments could be made either way on treason charges for his leaks about domestic spying, but the dude definitely needs to face charges for leaking the hacking info to the Chinese. There's no non-treasonous justification for that.

Anyone have primary source material... the actual source material that Snowden has leaked, pertaining to US hacking of Chinese systems?

 

If I wanted to discredit someone that exposed my supersecret squirrel NSA program that was doing naughty things, I'd embed the assertion that THAT PERSON did naughty things into his own allegations about my naughty things.

In other words, the assertion that Snowden leaked the info about US hacking may be fabricated by CIA/NSA to save face and try and curry political favor for prosecution of Snowden and/or intimidation of other potential future whistleblowers.

/

[kgbsquirrel]

Anyone have primary source material... the actual source material that Snowden has leaked, pertaining to US hacking of Chinese systems?

 

If I wanted to discredit someone that exposed my supersecret squirrel NSA program that was doing naughty things, I'd embed the assertion that THAT PERSON did naughty things into his own allegations about my naughty things.

In other words, the assertion that Snowden leaked the info about US hacking may be fabricated by CIA/NSA to save face and try and curry political favor for prosecution of Snowden and/or intimidation of other potential future whistleblowers.

/

Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations. Seems familiar doesn't it?

[Scout26]

Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations. Seems familiar doesn't it?

This.  Last I had heard was all he gave the British reporters were copies of the FISC orders.   If he's is running his mouth off to the Chicoms about other stuff....well that puts the ball in a different court.   Then he has gone too far.

[Marnoot]

From what I can see from the news articles, Snowden himself told the South China Morning Post that the US has been hacking Chinese systems. This isn't someone else alleging he's told the Chicoms this.

U.S. intelligence agents have been hacking computer networks around the world for years, apparently targeting fat data pipes that push immense amounts of data around the Internet, NSA leaker Edward Snowden told the South China Morning Post on Wednesday.
. . .
The Morning Post said it had seen documents provided by Snowden but was unable to verify their authenticity. The English-language news agency, which operates in Hong Kong, also said it was unable to independently verify allegations of U.S. hacking of networks in Hong Kong and mainland China since 2009.

[Fitz]

If true, that's espionage.

[Gewehr98]

Life insurance policy, courtesy of China?

[dm1333]

Maybe this has already been posted here.  The linked article talks about the NSA minimization procedures.  At first glance it looks like they are listening to conversations, reading email, etc. 

http://mashable.com/2013/06/20/nsa-data-minimization/

[roo_ster]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-warrant

However, alongside those provisions, the Fisa court-approved policies allow the NSA to:

• Keep data that could potentially contain details of US persons for up to five years;

• Retain and make use of "inadvertently acquired" domestic communications if they contain usable intelligence, information on criminal activity, threat of harm to people or property, are encrypted, or are believed to contain any information relevant to cybersecurity(1);

• Preserve "foreign intelligence information" contained within attorney-client communications;

• Access the content of communications gathered from "U.S. based machine" or phone numbers in order to establish if targets are located in the US, for the purposes of ceasing further surveillance.

The broad scope of the court orders, and the nature of the procedures set out in the documents, appear to clash with assurances from President Obama and senior intelligence officials that the NSA could not access Americans' call or email information without warrants.

The documents also show that discretion as to who is actually targeted under the NSA's foreign surveillance powers lies directly with its own analysts, without recourse to courts or superiors – though a percentage of targeting decisions are reviewed by internal audit teams on a regular basis.

(1) Traffic volume itself is relevant to cybersecurity.

[MicroBalrog]

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/use-of-tor-and-e-mail-crypto-could-increase-chances-that-nsa-keeps-your-data/

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

formally charged extradition sought   now it gets fun

[lupinus]

Hong Kong says paperwork wasn't in order, and let him get on a plane. A plane full of wikilinks lawyer folk.

Which landed in Moscow five minutes ago 

[dogmush]

Hong Kong says paperwork wasn't in order, and let him get on a plane. A plane full of wikilinks lawyer folk.

Which landed in Moscow five minutes ago 

The "Espionage" side of the balance is getting heavier.

[MicroBalrog]

Wikileaks lawyers seems to weigh towards "whistleblower."

[dogmush]

Wikileaks lawyers seems to weigh towards "whistleblower."

Disagree.  But I admit I might be influenced by my opinion of PFC Manning.

[Hawkmoon]

Whistleblower for the win.

And, which I'm sure will come as a surprise to no one, our own government doesn't seem to have a clue what the law is. None other than Nancy Pelosi found herself being booed for saying in a speech that Snowden broke the law. And perhaps he did (as a whistleblower, not as a spy, IMHO), but here's the crucial factoid:

Pelosi defended Obama's handling of the surveillance programs, noting that he met with the Privacy and Civil Liberties Board for the first time on Friday. The federal board helps address concerns with the NSA's surveillance programs.

"The fact is that you should reject any notion that President Obama's actions have anything to do with what President Bush was doing or was done," Pelosi said, adding that there was no Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) court under the Bush administration.

Source: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/307217-pelosi-booed-for-saying-nsa-leaker-snowden-violated-the-law

So Pelosi claims there was no FISA court under Bush. But Obama was elected in 2008 and inaugurated in 2009. The FISA act dates to 2001, so there very certainly WAS a FISA court under Bush.

And I find it amusing that Hong Kong allowed Snowden to depart because the U.S. couldn't even make a request for extradition in conformity with international law. That's just plain sad -- not that Snowden escaped the net, but that the U.S., with all it's over-paid lawyers, can't even prepare a request for extradition that complies with international law.

[TommyGunn]

........ That's just plain sad -- not that Snowden escaped the net, but that the U.S., with all it's over-paid lawyers, can't even prepare a request for extradition that complies with international law.

Are we so sure it was incompetance rather than .... deliberate?    --Just askin'.

[Hawkmoon]

Are we so sure it was incompetance rather than .... deliberate?    --Just askin'.

Now there's an interesting hypothesis.

Would that it were true ...

[Hawkmoon]

Correction: It seems the FISA court dates to 1978.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/for-secretive-surveillance-court-rare-scrutiny-in-wake-of-nsa-leaks/2013/06/22/df9eaae6-d9fa-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story_2.html

[roo_ster]

And I find it amusing that Hong Kong allowed Snowden to depart because the U.S. couldn't even make a request for extradition in conformity with international law. That's just plain sad -- not that Snowden escaped the net, but that the U.S., with all it's over-paid lawyers, can't even prepare a request for extradition that complies with international law.

Have you considered the possibility that all was in order, but HK/PRC felt it could defy BHO?  IOW, they have no fear or respect for BHO.  Some of that "Smart Diplomacy" in action.

[dogmush]

Have you considered the possibility that all was in order, but HK/PRC felt it could defy BHO?  IOW, they have no fear or respect for BHO.  Some of that "Smart Diplomacy" in action.

Can't really blame them there.

[roo_ster]

Dude ruminates on the criminal charges leveled against Snowden.

http://www.popehat.com/2013/06/23/a-look-at-the-charges-against-edward-snowden/

Note that the second and third charges both require the feds to prove that Snowden's release of information to the press was harmful to the United States. This puts our government in the position of attempting to prove that it is harmful to release accurate information about how it is spying on us, and how it is misleading us about spying on us.

Espionage charges usually describe someone with classified information leaking that information to powers hostile to the United States government.

We, the people, are those hostile powers.

[MicroBalrog]

Have you considered the possibility that all was in order, but HK/PRC felt it could defy BHO?  IOW, they have no fear or respect for BHO.  Some of that "Smart Diplomacy" in action.

Why is this surprising? China is a rising power with atomic weapons, and a vast balance of trade. What can the US menace them with that would be worth doing over Snowden?

[LadySmith]

Our government's responses to Snowden just needs a "Yakkety Sax" soundtrack.