Author Topic: Ohio execution takes 25 minutes  (Read 12347 times)

vaskidmark

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Re: Ohio execution takes 25 minutes
« Reply #75 on: January 18, 2014, 02:52:41 PM »
mea culpa

yes  the only way to keep lifers in line is something worse than life. otherwise there is actually an incentive FOR them to kill.they gain in status

Yes, someone who has killed while in prison gains status.  The issue is if, when, where and how they are permitted to use that increase in status for their benefit.

The way you keep lifers (and the rest of those doing time) in line is to offer them an either/or choice.  Follow the rules (as much as one can) and partake of the privileges or violate the rules and participate in the progressive withdrawal of privileges until all you are left with is the bare minium of care constitutionally required to avoid being considered cruel and unusual (which are the minimum levels/amonts of food, clothing, shelter, and medical care along with 30 minutes twice a week of "exercise").

The question has always been how long an inmate can endure the loss of privileges and which privileges they can endure losing.  Some have made it in the "hole" (literal isolation from human contact and no privileges) for several years and come out essentially unchanged as regards folloing rules.  Others can be "controlled" by something as simple as taking away the privilege of watching TV, or better yet the threat of losing tjhat privilege.  In the first case it was a scrawny little Milquetoast-looking 28-year old psychopath who never seemed to spend more than 48 hours outside of administrative segregation.  The second case was a three-time murderer (first two were 2nd degree murder convictions) of about 45 who looked, and sometimes sounded, like he would tear your head off just for being alive in his presence.  He never became a "gentle giant" but he did stop trying to kill people.  Of course, getting beat by him was no picnic, but it was an improvement. =D

I have interviewed about 15 people who were on death row.  It was part of a federally funded study that came up with the "wrong" results so was buried in some archive.  What I got was that while they were waiting for the final execution warrant the concept of death and of being executed were just that - psychological concepts.  Not until they had exhausted all their appeals and knew that barring the Second Coming there would be no last-minute reprieve did they actually begin to respond viscerally to the fact of impending death.  Yes, 15 is a pretty small sample, and there was no control for anything except they were on death row, had received a warrant of execution, and agreed to be interviewed.  Many more did not agree to be interviewed.

Guys on death row were never worried about getting a second death sentence - they knew they copuld only be executed once.  Lifers were a mixed bag - many (a plurality?) actually looked at death as being better than wasting their life away locked up, but none volunteered to be executed.  Unless you put credence to the stories of some lifers arranging to be killed on the yard/tier/cellblock to avoid doing any more time.

But I'd really like to get off this thread drift and get back to the issue of how we actually execute people.  Not thje specific modality, but how we use execution as a means of social control and whether or not it is effective.  Because in spite of what Amnesty International and my own observations tell me about prolonged incarceration, and especially prolonged incarceration in isolation, I want to hear why we kill some folks instead of locking them up underneath the prison and throwing away the key.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Tallpine

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Re: Re: Ohio execution takes 25 minutes
« Reply #76 on: January 18, 2014, 03:49:19 PM »

I don't always agree with csd, bit when I do, its this

I never disagreed.  I don't think that getting shanked in prison is part of the sentence for car theft or burglary.


Quote
whether or not it is effective

Well, it's certainly effective (when actually executed*) to keep that person from killing again.

* yes, intended  :lol:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re:
« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2014, 04:46:30 PM »
Yup no executed guy ever killed again.  Thats deterrence

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Ohio execution takes 25 minutes
« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2014, 04:58:23 PM »
:facepalm:

CSD,

I wonder sometime if your reading skills are on par with your writting skills.
Because what you are talking about hasn't anything to do with what I'm talking about.

Probably because I stayed on topic and you went off in lala land threaddrift.

Skid,
Do you think the method of exicution has any impact on someone who has decided to commit a crime for which the possibility of such exicution is warrented?
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re:
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2014, 05:04:53 PM »
We could look at the incidence of crimes in places that use cspital punishment and methodology.  Or even corporal punishment generally. Singapore comes to mind

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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vaskidmark

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Re: Ohio execution takes 25 minutes
« Reply #80 on: January 18, 2014, 10:16:50 PM »
....

Skid,
Do you think the method of exicution has any impact on someone who has decided to commit a crime for which the possibility of such exicution is warrented?

Here's the thing.  Most folks who take the time to plan out how, when, where to commit a crime look at apprehension/conviction/punishment in a very abstract sense as a potential cost of doing business.  Consideration of the potential punishment does not seem to enter into the thought processes, with the possible exception of those who kill possible witnesses.  In those cases I am not aware of any consideration of the specific sentence.  Rather, the consideration seems to be "if I get rid of witnesses I cannot/will not be caught."

I have never encountered or read about someone who thought "You know, if I kill everyone in the drug store while I'm robbing it, I could get put to death by lethal injection.  I am not sure what happens when they start putting the drugs into you - do you really not feel anything or are you just unable to comminicate that you are suffering excrutiatingly?  What happens to you when you die?  Is there really an afterlife?  Is there any truth that if there is an afterlife mine will be one of suffering because I am going to be a bad person for killing those people?  Thinking about all this stuff, it seems maybe shooting everybody would be not the greatest idea.  I'll just rob the place."

Thinking like thast is what you and I and the vast majority of people do, and it is why we have the types of punishments that we have.  Loss of freedom (of movement, of association with family/friends, of validation of personhood through social status are all things that scare the crap out of us.  Criminals do not care about those things.  The reasons why (or the theories why) vary but all seem to involve the difference between our locus of control being internal and criminals' being external.  <insert long, boring lecture about locus of control theories here>  <debate using csd as a case example of the change of locus of control from external to internal.  decide it's both too easy and a cheap shot.>

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

KD5NRH

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Re: Ohio execution takes 25 minutes
« Reply #81 on: January 19, 2014, 03:51:54 AM »
OK, take it to the other extreme; if the maximum penalty for murder was a $10 fine, I'd budget anywhere from $20-$50 a month.  Therefore, higher penalties are a significant deterrent.  Nothing can be a perfect preemptive deterrent, but a lot of people don't commit murder because the potential penalty is too high; that means the penalty is an effective deterrent.


cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re:
« Reply #82 on: January 19, 2014, 09:08:09 AM »
The biggest,and funniest* mistake folks make is trying to apply their own brand of thinking as they analyze the actions of a criminal. It leads them down many crooked paths.

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tallpine

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Re: Ohio execution takes 25 minutes
« Reply #83 on: January 19, 2014, 10:51:42 AM »
OK, take it to the other extreme; if the maximum penalty for murder was a $10 fine, I'd budget anywhere from $20-$50 a month.  ...

Why so cheap of a budget  ???  :P

I wonder if you can get a discount by paying in advance for a bulk lot ...?    >:D
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Firethorn

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Re: Ohio execution takes 25 minutes
« Reply #84 on: January 19, 2014, 11:15:47 AM »
Therefore, higher penalties are a significant deterrent.  Nothing can be a perfect preemptive deterrent, but a lot of people don't commit murder because the potential penalty is too high; that means the penalty is an effective deterrent.

It does not follow - What I was arguing is that the deterrent effects max out at around 7-10 years.  Think of a graph like this:


You get some deterrence even with NO punishment, and even minor amounts of punishment has a great effect on deterrence, however as the amount grows, the rate at which the increase increases deterrence declines, eventually leveling out.

I argue this stuff because, well, can we really afford, at $10-50k a year, to warehouse prisoners for no real benefit?

There are techniques to increase the deterrence effect - such as advertising the penalty so it's on more people's minds.  One city did this with gun crime - stuck the penalty on buses and such, double digit decrease in guns found during drug busts.  Also, remember this is a psychological thing where 7+7 can indeed be greater than 14, if properly presented.  But back to psychology - it's more how you present the punishment than the real punishment.

Finally, like CSD said, part of the trick is impressing the punishment on the potential criminal's mind, as opposed to the standard non-criminal mindset.  The latter you don't have to worry about.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 11:46:49 AM by Firethorn »

vaskidmark

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Re: Ohio execution takes 25 minutes
« Reply #85 on: January 19, 2014, 03:58:20 PM »
OK, take it to the other extreme; if the maximum penalty for murder was a $10 fine, I'd budget anywhere from $20-$50 a month.  Therefore, higher penalties are a significant deterrent.  Nothing can be a perfect preemptive deterrent, but a lot of people don't commit murder because the potential penalty is too high; that means the penalty is an effective deterrent.



There are essentially two types of murderers: those that commit murder on the spur of the moment in the heat of passion or as as a consequence of some act of stupidity like drunk driving, and those that methodically plan it out.

The first group never considers the potential penalty of committing murder.  The second group may consider the potential penalty but discounts the possibility of being caught for committing the murder.  (In support, I offer the closure rate for murder.  Roughly 1.5 cases in 10.  That's pretty good odds against getting caught.  And you can increase the odds of not getting caught if you bother to think just a little bit about what you are doing and keep your big mouth shut.)

And then there are a lot of people who do not commit murder because not only do they consider the potential penalty too great but because they do not have the will (or unmitigated intent) to actually do it.  These are the folks who say "I'd love to kill my boss" or "I'm gonna kill the next jerk that drives on the shoulder to get around this traffic jam" or the like.  Add to that the few who say they would like to kill their spouse/significant other but do not actually do so.  Etc.  Etc.  Etc.

A deterrent should be pretty much like a highway guard rail.  It should stop most of the action it is designed to stop, even when someone/something intentionall tries to do that thing the deterrent is in place to stop.  The dererrent against murder should be like those suicide truck barriers - strong enough to stop the most determined actor.  But just as the fiscal cost of those barriers keep many places from installing them, the social cost of an actually effective deterrent against murder is too high for most folks to accept.  Instead, we have what scares those who are the very least likely to commit murder - and it works until they move from that group to one of the two groups where a person is likely to commit murder.

What we have in place is not a deterrent but a warning sign.  "See what happened to this person who got caught?  Do you want that to happen to you?"  It may have some impact on folks that bother to think about the consequences of their behavior.  But I ask you to review the two groups I identified above.  They either do not consider the consequences or have discounted the possibility of the consequences being applied to them.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.