Author Topic: This could get Interesting  (Read 54319 times)

charby

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #200 on: April 15, 2014, 09:16:19 PM »
If you really cared you should have ben paying attention when it happened.

I was 23 in 1997 and unfortunately probably more drunk then sober at the time.
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charby

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #201 on: April 15, 2014, 09:16:39 PM »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #202 on: April 15, 2014, 09:22:52 PM »
Snopes on the Bundy Incident

http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp



pshaw   snopes is in denial about the apache choppers too
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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charby

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #203 on: April 15, 2014, 09:28:15 PM »
pshaw   snopes is in denial about the apache choppers too

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Perd Hapley

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #204 on: April 15, 2014, 09:29:27 PM »
 ???
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charby

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #205 on: April 15, 2014, 09:31:48 PM »
???

A lot of so called press needs to be eating a lot of crow over the Bundy incident.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 10:43:22 PM by charby »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #206 on: April 15, 2014, 09:58:33 PM »
I didn't know the helicopter thing got beyond social media and the blogosphere.

(That's the phone-jamming story, right?)
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #207 on: April 15, 2014, 10:08:17 PM »
I was 23 in 1997 and unfortunately probably more drunk then sober at the time.

That's the problem with children today, no sense of history.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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charby

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #208 on: April 15, 2014, 10:45:19 PM »
That's the problem with children today, no sense of history.

 :rofl:
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Scout26

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #209 on: April 15, 2014, 11:04:12 PM »
Sorry, I'm going side with 400-500 Americans that stopped what they were doing to go out and stand in the desert against heavily armed agents of the US Govt.

P.S. If the "Lover-of-all-things-Jackboot" is backing you up, you might want to re-evaluate your position.   ;) =D
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Fitz

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Re:
« Reply #210 on: April 15, 2014, 11:05:04 PM »
Occupy wall street had even more numbers
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Re:
« Reply #211 on: April 15, 2014, 11:10:15 PM »
500 is an awful small number of patriots. Doesn't bode well for the revolution.  Though for me the sheer volume of untruthful stuff from that side is most telling.

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re:
« Reply #212 on: April 15, 2014, 11:20:44 PM »
500 is an awful small number of patriots. Doesn't bode well for the revolution.  Though for me the sheer volume of untruthful stuff from that side is most telling.

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This is my problem.

It's hard to rally behind a cause when so many in the cause are spouting ridiculousness.

Gov lies = OMG evil gov (and rightly so)

"patriots" lie = OMG EVIL GOV!!!!
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charby

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #213 on: April 15, 2014, 11:27:05 PM »
Sorry, I'm going side with 400-500 Americans that stopped what they were doing to go out and stand in the desert against heavily armed agents of the US Govt.

P.S. If the "Lover-of-all-things-Jackboot" is backing you up, you might want to re-evaluate your position.   ;) =D

Bundy's ancestors should have staked out the boundaries of the ranch in the past before the land was surveyed after the Mexican American war of 1846-47, since he has paid grazing fees in the past, that means he has acknowledged that someone else owns the land he grazed on. Bundy has about as much right to the BLM land as I do to the family ancestral grounds of Huron Island on the Mississippi River that is owned by the Corp of Engineers now.
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charby

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Re:
« Reply #214 on: April 15, 2014, 11:28:47 PM »
Occupy wall street had even more numbers

Another silly protest based on a lot of misquoted half-truths.
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freakazoid

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Re:
« Reply #215 on: April 16, 2014, 12:11:24 AM »
Occupy wall street had even more numbers

Middle of the desert in Nevada, vs middle of a large city. Haven't heard how many people were there, but if it was 400-500 I would say that is a LOT of people.
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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charby

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #217 on: April 16, 2014, 08:30:50 AM »
General Land Office was established in 1812. US got Nevada as a spoil of the Mexican American war of 1846-47. Bundy family started their ranch in 1877. That means Bundy's family would have gotten their land via the General Land Office or bought it off an existing land owner.

In 1916 The Stock-Raising Homestead Act was passed that increased lands granted by the 1862 Homestead Act increased to 640 acres, looks like Bundy's family failed to act, or they did and the land was broken up amongst a lot of heirs.

In 1976 Homesteading was ended, except for Alaska where that ended in 1986. Cliven Bundy looks old enough to have been an adult before 1976, so he should have grabbed his 640 acres of prime Nevada desert when he was younger.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 09:48:13 AM by charby »
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Jamisjockey

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Re:
« Reply #218 on: April 16, 2014, 09:45:58 AM »
Occupy wall street had even more numbers

However, the OWS people didn't stand armed in front of a contingent of jack booted thugs, daring them to start shooting.
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Re: Re:
« Reply #219 on: April 16, 2014, 09:51:08 AM »
However, the OWS people didn't stand armed in front of a contingent of jack booted thugs, daring them to start shooting.


The presence of guns has bearing on them being right? That's an interesting idea
Fitz

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charby

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Re:
« Reply #220 on: April 16, 2014, 09:58:12 AM »
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Ben

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #221 on: April 16, 2014, 10:29:23 AM »
I return to my original post in this thread. I'm not in the "Cliven Bundy fan club". However, I'm much less in the government's camp in how this was handled.

They have spent well over a million dollars of our money to collect a claim of million dollars in fines. While after the media attention they may now say they are going after Bundy to recover that money, I don't see any evidence of them looking to recover costs pre-media blitz, only to remove the cattle at taxpayer expense. Even if they were going to recover the costs, the cattle removal process itself was ridiculously overpriced. If herding cattle actually cost that much, either there would be no cattle ranchers, or we'd be paying $400/lb for beef.

They claimed that they needed a freakin' battalion's worth of armed LE at the scene "for the safety of our personnel". Yet in everything I've read or watched so far, the only physical attacks and injuries I've seen are to Bundy's son, Bundy's sister, and several protestors. The only battery or physical threat I've seen to LE is a dog that was kicked. While post "militia presence" it is harder to argue against an armed government presence, it is much harder to argue for the oversized armed government presence that was there before this blew up, and frankly, to me, is a primary reason that this did blow up the way it did. They wanted to have an intimidating presence at the scene, and it simply didn't work out the way they'd planned.
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Re:
« Reply #222 on: April 16, 2014, 10:32:21 AM »
Occupy wall street had even more numbers

But very few took had to take off work.



As for those who stand up to gov't thuggery not being the nicest people you'd ever want to invite to your pajama party, no *expletive deleted*it.  If you have read anything about the dissidents in the communist countries you'd know that almost to a man they were right bastards.  "Prickly" doesn't even begin to describe it.  Nice folks don't stand up to gov't thuggery when everyone else submits.  Nice folks worry about their kids and what their neighbors might think and then bow and scrape and work out the best deal they can.  It takes a true egotist, willing to do nearly anything, to think he can beat the jackboots and to risk his family's well-being in the process.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/375824/case-little-sedition-kevin-d-williamson
Quote
A great deal of the discussion about the Cliven Bundy standoff in Nevada has focused on the legal questions — the litigation between Mr. Bundy and the BLM, his eccentric (i.e., batzoid) legal rationales, etc. But as Rich Lowry and others have argued, this is best understood not as a legal proceeding but as an act of civil disobedience. John Hinderaker and Rich both are correct that as a legal question Mr. Bundy is legless. But that is largely beside the point.

Of course the law is against Cliven Bundy. How could it be otherwise?...

But not all dissidents are content to submit to what we, in the Age of Obama, still insist on quaintly calling “the rule of law.” And there is a price to pay for that, too: King George not only would have been well within his legal rights to hang every one of this nation’s seditious Founding Fathers, he would have been duty-bound to do so, the keeping of the civil peace being the first responsibility of the civil authority. Every fugitive slave, and every one of the sainted men and women who harbored and enabled them, was a law-breaker, and who can blame them if none was content to submit to what passed for justice among the slavers? The situation was less dramatic during the government shutdown, but every one of the veterans and cheesed-off citizens who disregarded President Obama’s political theater and pushed aside his barricades was a law-breaker, too — and bless them for being that.
...
Mr. Bundy’s stand should not be construed as a general template for civic action, it is nonetheless the case that, in measured doses, a little sedition is an excellent thing.
Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

charby

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Re: This could get Interesting
« Reply #223 on: April 16, 2014, 10:34:53 AM »
I return to my original post in this thread. I'm not in the "Cliven Bundy fan club". However, I'm much less in the government's camp in how this was handled.

They have spent well over a million dollars of our money to collect a claim of million dollars in fines. While after the media attention they may now say they are going after Bundy to recover that money, I don't see any evidence of them looking to recover costs pre-media blitz, only to remove the cattle at taxpayer expense. Even if they were going to recover the costs, the cattle removal process itself was ridiculously overpriced. If herding cattle actually cost that much, either there would be no cattle ranchers, or we'd be paying $400/lb for beef.

They claimed that they needed a freakin' battalion's worth of armed LE at the scene "for the safety of our personnel". Yet in everything I've read or watched so far, the only physical attacks and injuries I've seen are to Bundy's son, Bundy's sister, and several protestors. The only battery or physical threat I've seen to LE is a dog that was kicked. While post "militia presence" it is harder to argue against an armed government presence, it is much harder to argue for the oversized armed government presence that was there before this blew up, and frankly, to me, is a primary reason that this did blow up the way it did. They wanted to have an intimidating presence at the scene, and it simply didn't work out the way they'd planned.

The Sagebrush Rebellion did have a history of violence towards government agencies and employees. How would of you felt if a couple BLM employees showed up to round up the cattle and they were killed by the Bundy clan and followers? Would you support a para military assault on the Bundy Ranch then?

Also the Washington Post article says that the BLM removes cattle several times a year due to non payment of grazing fees. I'm going to assume that they don't seen the BLM SWAT for those collections.

I'm also wondering if Cliven Bundy threatened to shoot anyone who attempted to confiscate his cattle?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 10:38:13 AM by charby »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Re:
« Reply #224 on: April 16, 2014, 10:54:01 AM »
However, the OWS people didn't stand armed in front of a contingent of jack booted thugs, daring them to start shooting.

The ows didn't pose for pics aiming rifles at anyone either.  And even they were smart enough not to give the photographer their name and locale.

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I