xkcd, I am disappoint

[Balog]

http://xkcd.com/1379

Randall has went full retard on the Anthropogenic Global Warming hysteria. I guess he's more of the "Outreach to Muslims" kind of ex-Nasa employee than the "Send men to the moon" kind. Oh well, I suppose I shouldn't insult his religion.

[Nick1911]

Yea, he's had some political messages over the the past year.  More or less turned me off of xkcd.

Either outright snarky, or "I'm going to try to educate you about [insert leftist idea]".  I go to webcomics because I want funny, not politically biased infographics.

[Balog]

Yea, he's had some political messages over the the past year.  More or less turned me off of xkcd.

Either outright snarky, or "I'm going to try to educate you about [insert leftist idea]".  I go to webcomics because I want funny, not politically biased infographics.

Prior to this the only thing I recall being political was the silly long arc with Ron Paul and Doctorow etc. But it's possible I've just been ignoring them and not recalling.

Funny webcomics trying to get serious (Ctrl+Alt+Del and the whole "death of a child" storyline) or be political is the best sign their in a death spiral. Here's hoping he pulls his head out and makes with the funny again.

[RevDisk]

Full retard is a bit strong. "Misleading" is more correct.

We are in the middle of an ice age. Specifically, we're in the interglacial period (Holocene) of the current long term cooling slash ice age (Quaternary Period).

Last five million years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Five_Myr_Climate_Change.png

Last sixty five million years
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:65_Myr_Climate_Change.png

How earth theoretically looked during the Eocene period
http://cpgeosystems.com/50moll.jpg

The chart isn't wrong. The assertion at the top is badly phrased. "May warm by 4-5C (10 degrees F)".


We know climate change happens. Well, no kidding. We've had the planet be hot and humid, and we've had the planet be an ice ball. We don't know how much short term (as in thousands of years, let alone individual years) climate change is functioning. We don't know how much humans are currently impacting said climate change. And we don't know if it's a net benefit or liability, and for what periods of time. If we did did jump to the Paleocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum (unlikely, but hey), it'd be bad during the transition but good during the next "glacial" period we'd otherwise have in the future. Maybe.

We do need more science, as it's pretty important. We need scientists that can do their research freely without ideological direction (from either side). We need to know what's going on, how is it going on, what impact it will have, and what is the best direction for future action on a timescale.

[Balog]

Full retard is a bit strong.

"Without prompt, aggressive limits" is full retard. For one, that would destroy modern civilization if everyone complied. For two, China, India etc wouldn't comply so it'd merely be dooming Western Civilization.

[RevDisk]

"Without prompt, aggressive limits" is full retard. For one, that would destroy modern civilization if everyone complied. For two, China, India etc wouldn't comply so it'd merely be dooming Western Civilization.

Well, I think it's not quite sufficient evidence of full retard. For example, there's a possibility he has some level of sanity and maybe he thinks we should aggressively expand our nuclear energy program so that we have a national advantage of cheap power, being less reliant on fossil fuels, being independent from inefficient/expensive alternatives like wind/solar and less polluting in general.

In which case, I'd say his heart is in the right place but using unproven science to drive an intelligent decision is unsavory.

[Balog]

Well, I think it's not quite sufficient evidence of full retard. For example, there's a possibility he has some level of sanity and maybe he thinks we should aggressively expand our nuclear energy program so that we have a national advantage of cheap power, being less reliant on fossil fuels, being independent from inefficient/expensive alternatives like wind/solar and less polluting in general.

In which case, I'd say his heart is in the right place but using unproven science to drive an intelligent decision is unsavory.

Expanding nuclear power is not the same as limiting C02 production. It would be a by-product, but they are not the same thing.

If he was just trying to promote nuke plants then I'll retract to "he phrased that really badly."

[RevDisk]

Expanding nuclear power is not the same as limiting C02 production. It would be a by-product, but they are not the same thing.

If he was just trying to promote nuke plants then I'll retract to "he phrased that really badly."

No, I suspect you're probably correct that he's doing what too many folks are doing as drawing the conclusion that we need to make radical changes that would seriously hinder our ability to maintain our standard of living, based on science that is still in progress and has not been proven.

Suspect is not the same thing as "know", however.

 

[Ben]

Full retard is a bit strong. "Misleading" is more correct.
We are in the middle of an ice age. Specifically, we're in the interglacial period (Holocene) of the current long term cooling slash ice age (Quaternary Period).

I attempt to explain it to people using seasons as an analogy. We are right around Spring - early Summer in geological time. It's gonna get warmer, then it's gonna get colder again. People have great difficulty grasping time as a concept outside of human lifespans. The current OMG AGW numbers are at most, statistical noise when dropped into the timeframe of Milankovitch Cycles.

I also like to tell people here on the coast crying about sea level rise how when I was a kid, I used to collect ocean fossils in the hills behind my house. The ocean makes up 70% of the Earth's surface, and is a dynamic liquid (with some small solid component). Yet people put structures within 100 yards of it and expect that ginormous, fluid body to remain stable. Human hubris.

[KD5NRH]

I also like to tell people here on the coast crying about sea level rise how when I was a kid, I used to collect ocean fossils in the hills behind my house.

Some pretty impressive ones out by mom's place...at 1340ft MSL.

[Devonai]

What shuts me down completely is when global warming proponents say "You're a BAD person and you do BAD things and we need to tax you more so that you'll be discouraged from doing BAD stuff."

 

As with all other taxation issues, when men with guns are authorized to kick down your door and take you to prison, I am just a smidge dubious of the actual motive.

[Balog]

AGW zealots are just useful idiots.

[charby]

What shuts me down completely is when global warming proponents say "You're a BAD person and you do BAD things and we need to tax you more so that you'll be discouraged from doing BAD stuff."

 

As with all other taxation issues, when men with guns are authorized to kick down your door and take you to prison, I am just a smidge dubious of the actual motive.

Pretty much same with me. Now if they said, we need to look into improving technologies so we can maintain our standards of living and reducing the amounts of greenhouse gasses, then I'd be all open ears.

[MillCreek]

Pretty much same with me. Now if they said, we need to look into improving technologies so we can maintain our standards of living and reducing the amounts of greenhouse gasses, then I'd be all open ears.

Hear, hear!

[Balog]

Pretty much same with me. Now if they said, we need to look into improving technologies so we can maintain our standards of living and reducing the amounts of greenhouse gasses, then I'd be all open ears.

We have the technology to do that. It's called nuclear power plants. The only improving we need to do to it is stopping the goddamn hippies from red taping every new plant in court so we can build hundreds of them.

[Nick1911]

We have the technology to do that. It's called nuclear power plants. The only improving we need to do to it is stopping the goddamn hippies from red taping every new plant in court so we can build hundreds of them.

This, exactly.

Scientists and engineers solved the energy problem 50 years ago.  Clean, cheap energy.

Now it's only a political problem.

[charby]

We have the technology to do that. It's called nuclear power plants. The only improving we need to do to it is stopping the goddamn hippies from red taping every new plant in court so we can build hundreds of them.

That is only area, what about manufacturing of gizmos.

What about technology to keep reusing the spent fuel again and again until it is inert or a simple disposal problem?

[Balog]

That is only area, what about manufacturing of gizmos.

What about technology to keep reusing the spent fuel again and again until it is inert or a simple disposal problem?

Manufacturing that doesn't use electricity for power could be refitted.

New gen reactors do what you describe.

[charby]

Manufacturing that doesn't use electricity for power could be refitted.

New gen reactors do what you describe.

I'm talking about chemicals used in manufacturing or inefficient use of energy in production. Go to minimal packaging, by making the producer responsible for post consumer waste of the package. Have digesters at waster water treatment plants and use the methane generated to heat or power the turd plant or more.

How about cities stopping crazy zoning laws that a new house has to be a certain sqft or bigger, x number of bedrooms and has to have a garage. Why not allow smaller lots and mini homes for the folks that want them?

[KD5NRH]

Go to minimal packaging, by making the producer responsible for post consumer waste of the package.

What?  No more USB sticks in boxes bigger than the one my last pair of boots came in?  Xerox won't ship a single page of instructions in a box anymore?  (Yes, really; box about the size of a paper box lid, with foam and an envelope inside, containing return instructions and FedEx label to return our dead printer.)

[Perd Hapley]

...making the producer responsible for post consumer waste of the package...

Huh?

[Hawkmoon]

We know climate change happens. Well, no kidding. We've had the planet be hot and humid, and we've had the planet be an ice ball. We don't know how much short term (as in thousands of years, let alone individual years) climate change is functioning. We don't know how much humans are currently impacting said climate change. And we don't know if it's a net benefit or liability, and for what periods of time. If we did did jump to the Paleocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum (unlikely, but hey), it'd be bad during the transition but good during the next "glacial" period we'd otherwise have in the future. Maybe.

All true.

I like to remind global warming alarmists that the Vikings settled on Greenland and started an agrarian society there that lasted for about 500 years (longer than Europeans have been on North America). Things cooled down to below the level of sustainability only shortly before the arrival of Columbus in the West Indies. By that yardstick, we should not even be thinking "global warming" until it gets too HOT to farm Greenland.

[charby]

Huh?

EU did this and magically product packaging got a lot smaller and simpler.

[AJ Dual]

I won't say "full retard" because he's done the whole nuclear power graph joke about how logarithmic scales are for wimps or whatever.

And that's one of my sticking points on MMGW, if they REALLY believed it, any scientist who can do MATH would know nuclear is the only energy source that could power our civilization at it's current level, with growth factored in. And have the side benefit of doing a whole host of things "cleanly" that open up to us when you've got energy to spare to throw at most any problem.

Besides, not counting the ability with cheap energy to synthesize any hydrocarbon we wish from raw feedstocks like CO2, biomass and garbage in RDP process etc. we kind of need oil and petrochemicals for things other than simply burning, plastics, lubrication, pharmaceuticals, fertilizers...

So even if I think they're probably wrong, I don't have a problem with any MMGW'er who wants to go full-retard on fission.

[Perd Hapley]

EU did this and magically product packaging got a lot smaller and simpler.

By inhibiting free trade? You're in favor of this?