ISIS Tar baby

[French G.]

So, how do we handle this now? I say now because it is pretty clear what is going to happen if we lose a plane there and the pilot gets captured.

I whole-heartedly support killing anyone who shows a twinge of allegiance to their black flag. As a country though it seems we have two choices. One is to eliminate the chance of a captured American. That is no more airstrikes, no pilots overhead, pull out the advisors who are wink-wink nod-nod not there currently. The other is to put in place the infrastructure to make more effective strikes. Ground controllers, sufficient force to protect them from attack, and specwar types on strip alert to remove downed pilots withing minutes.

I'm more okay than most here with killing trash on other people's land but I do not want what we'll get if they put an American in a cage and set them on fire. If that happens we will be occupying that area 50 years from now, provided that we are even a country anymore.

TLDR mess gonna get messier. Maybe one day we can do more than "degrade" these scum.

[De Selby]

Perhaps getting out of the game of weakening Syria and Iran to the advantage of the Saudis (whose laws are basically the same as ISIS) would be a start.

ISIS would not exist if not for US a policy on Iraq and Syria.  Simply ending the flow of guns and cash for Islamic extremists would seriously undermine their reach.

[Northwoods]

ISIS would not exist if not for US a policy on Iraq and Syria.  Simply ending the flow of guns and cash for Islamic extremists would seriously undermine their reach.

Oh, come on.  ISIS is basically an extension of what was already there.  The only reason they exist now is the equally brutal regimes that oppressed them aren't oppressing them anymore.  And an awful lot of the fighters for ISIS came from the Caucasus regions.  You could maybe blame Russia for that, but on US policy on anything, even Iraq and Syria.

[De Selby]

Oh, come on.  ISIS is basically an extension of what was already there.  The only reason they exist now is the equally brutal regimes that oppressed them aren't oppressing them anymore.  And an awful lot of the fighters for ISIS came from the Caucasus regions.  You could maybe blame Russia for that, but on US policy on anything, even Iraq and Syria.

What was ISIS an extension of? And where's the evidence of "an awful lot" of Chechens there??

Not even Al Qaeda had an army in these places until the Iraq war.   ISIS in particular came out of Syria AFTER the U.S. sponsored Islamic uprising against Syria's non-Muslim, secular dictator.  

There was no place for Chechens (again, no evidence of masses of them) or other international fighters to go when the Syrians were in charge.  Islamic extremism was banned and could get you killed in that country before US backed rebels created a haven for them.

Edit:  a great irony that the U.S. is backing the Saudis (read ISIS - same religion and laws) against the "evil" Syrians, who did anti-freedom things like ban headscarves and outlaw Muslim religious groups.  

[RoadKingLarry]

Jordan is pretty seriously pissed off about now. I wonder how far they'll take things.

[Mannlicher]

the situation in the Middle East is not going away.  Makes no difference if we participate or not.  The global threat from the muslims has an effect on our security  in America.
We can, in essence, fight and kill them here, or fight and kill them there.  I personally think the latter choice is the better one.

The absolute best thing we could look for right now, is an all out internecine war between the shia and sunnis.   

[RevDisk]

So, how do we handle this now?

Air drop a bunch of weapons to the Kurds, but otherwise stay the hell out of the matter.

[Ben]

Jordan is pretty seriously pissed off about now. I wonder how far they'll take things.

Their king apparently quoted Clint Eastwood in "Unforgiven" to congress, so I'm guessing pretty far.

With the televising of their citizen being brutally burned alive in an MTV style video, I can't say that I blame him. He's dealing with ISIS in a way that will get their attention. Obama is still using ephemeral language like "organization" to describe them. They're not a freakin' business franchise.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

They got busy


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[French G.]

Air drop a bunch of weapons to the Kurds, but otherwise stay the hell out of the matter.

Well, we already have pilots overhead, so too late for that. mine was mainly a musing of two not quite strategic choices. Do airstrikes right or leave. And we can't leave, not exactly the message we want to send. We know now with certainty that there will be no Scott Speicher uncertainty. I highly doubt we have the will to act decisively enough to extricate one of our pilots. I know we have the capability, I was around when SEAL dets from my boat were flying into Bosnia to try to get O'Grady out.

That's really all my question was, not a re-fighting of the Balfour declaration, Barbary pirates, or the first Crusade.

[Scout26]

The only thing they respect is force.  If we are going to go in, then go in hard, kill and break *expletive deleted*it.   Make their ancestors and grandkids feel the pain.  Let it be known that *expletive deleted*ing with America will bring down a world of hurt upon you. 

As I said on 9/11/01.  The last time we fought against a society that worshiped at the altar of suicide we had to use two nuclear weapons to get them to stop.  I fear that we may have to go that route again.     

[RevDisk]

He stood up Jordan's Special Forces capacity, and is responsible for Jordan having some of the best special operations training facilities on the planet (KASOTC). He's improved Jordan's economy, liberalized the media and civil rights, etc. Quite a few people are prospering or enjoying expanded privileges under his rule. Plus he's been modernizing their military with F-16's and Challenger tanks.

Not the kind of man you want angry at you.

[wmenorr67]

The only thing they respect is force.  If we are going to go in, then go in hard, kill and break *expletive deleted*it.   Make their ancestors and grandkids feel the pain.  Let it be known that *expletive deleted*ing with America will bring down a world of hurt upon you. 

As I said on 9/11/01.  The last time we fought against a society that worshiped at the altar of suicide we had to use two nuclear weapons to get them to stop.  I fear that we may have to go that route again.     

Be a great option if we were actually fighting an organized government that claimed specific territory.  What would be the target for a nuke and how do you deploy it without pissing off the rest of the world?  It is safe to say that the bad guys don't have a few nukes, if they did, they would have already used one just to show they have it.

[AmbulanceDriver]

You know, I hate to say it, but I don't think it's possible to eliminate the ideology that pervades radical Islam and groups like ISIS.....  

What you can do is make it ruinously expensive for them.  Make it perfectly clear....  For every innocent you kill, we kill 100 of you.  For every bombing that you claim, we'll drop 100 bombs on your heads.  

I agree that these bastards will only respect force.  We have to have the balls to make it hurt.  Make it hurt enough, and they may not stop, but they'll at least think twice and spend a lot of time looking over their shoulders.

[brimic]

ISIS would not exist if not for US a policy on Iraq and Syria.  Simply ending the flow of guns and cash for Islamic extremists would seriously undermine their reach.

Don't forget Libya. There is plenty to suggest that the embassy attack there had everything to do with our arming of ISIS/ISIL/Muslim Brotherhood. Allowing and supporting the overthrow of QAddafi (sp?) was a huge mistake, probably downright treasonous- he has been irrelevant for the last 30 years.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/30/us-libya-usa-order-idUSTRE72T6H220110330

[roo_ster]

DeSelby is not far off the mark.  ISIS likely would not exist or would be insignificant had not BHO done his best to destabilize Syria.  Bashar Assad was keeping the lid on all that krayzee despite/because he was a brutal bastard.

Now that we are in this mess, I second RevDisk on the "gunz2kurds" effort.  Also, BHO is enforcing on hte US Armed Forces the "no cluster munition" treaty the US Senate did not sign.  So, we may have lots of them ready to ship to Abdulah.

[Boomhauer]

I'm thinking that we should tell Jordan that we support their open season on ISIS and will material aid and funding for that purpose and that will pretty much solve the ISIS issue. Send lots of guns and funding to the Kurds, too.

If we are going to go in, then go in hard, kill and break *expletive deleted*it.   Make their ancestors and grandkids feel the pain.  Let it be known that *expletive deleted*ing with America will bring down a world of hurt upon you. 

This. Limited war with restrictive idiotic ROEs is a policy that has failed repeatedly. Vietnam. Iraq. Afghanistan.

Time to toss out that bullshit and go with "If we're gonna go to war, we're gonna fight it to win it"

[RevDisk]

Limited or unlimited war. Wars are won when they are actually winnable.

"Kick Saddam out of Kuwait" is a concrete achievable metric. Cut off supply lines, destroy units in Kuwait, and you're done.
"Make people act in a manner entirely contrary to their culture and against their primary incentives" is not an achievable metric.

Vietnam was lost because the puppet Southern government was corrupt and inefficient. The communists offered xenophobia, promised material gains, etc. Especially the communists played to the peasants' incentives and culture. Our side allegedly offered inequality and vague concepts like "freedom". Better in the long run, but not from the perception of your average villager.

The key to winning wars is to fight wars that are winnable. This sounds simplistic bordering on retarded, but is the bedrock of warfare. Changing a hill with a sharp stick against infantry in foxholes with automatic weapons is suicide. Charging a hill with tanks supported mechanized infantry and full CAS against infantry in foxholes with automatic weapons is pretty certain victory.

Restrictive idiotic ROEs are not the problem. It's getting in a fight you can't win. Trying to change Iraq or Afghanistan into a sandy version of Seattle is an unwinnable fight. If your success relies entirely on the civilian population acting in a way that is entirely foreign and contrary to their nature, you won't win unless you pull a Soviet Union or Taliban. Torture, genocide, no system of law, etc.

[makattak]

Limited or unlimited war. Wars are won when they are actually winnable.

"Kick Saddam out of Kuwait" is a concrete achievable metric. Cut off supply lines, destroy units in Kuwait, and you're done.
"Make people act in a manner entirely contrary to their culture and against their primary incentives" is not an achievable metric.

I give you Japan as counter to that argument.

[De Selby]

I give you Japan as counter to that argument.

Huh?  Last I checked Japanese culture is alive and well.

[lupinus]

Huh?  Last I checked Japanese culture is alive and well.

Exactly.

[RevDisk]

I give you Japan as counter to that argument.

 

Quite the opposite.

Japan civilian population was very willing to follow orders from the top brass and the Emperor. Convincing the top brass and Emperor wasn't easy, but it was achievable. It would have been very costly to take Japan if the top brass and the Emperor uniformly said "Fight to the last person standing and don't cooperate with the occupying foreign devils!"

[tokugawa]

Huh?  Last I checked Japanese culture is alive and well.

 Ask Yukio Mishima about that.

[grampster]

ISIS is slowly but surely pissing off their Muslim brethren in the myriad of sects who don't ascribe to Wahabbism.  Wouldn't surprise me any to seen the patron of Wahabbism, the House of Saud, begin to have 2nd thoughts.

[tokugawa]

Ask Yukio Mishima about that. His appeal to samurai virtue was ridiculed by the college students. There is a vast difference between 21 century Japanese culture and what existed prior to 1850- the Meiji restoration burned out some, but the loss of WW
2 absolutely hammered it.

 I read somewhere the plan for Japan was to use gas after we ran out of nukes.
 Even without that, LeMay would have taken care of it- after every hamlet was burnt to the clay, the next step would have probably been the food production areas. By this time in the war, any concern about civilian casualties was long gone. . Someone, somehow, in what must have been the toughest argument in military history, got LeMay to spare Kyoto...