Auto Thieves Drown, Cops Blamed

[Ben]

Three teenage girls steal a car (not the first time), and while eluding cops, drive into a scummy pond at night. The cops are being blamed by the usual suspects for not saving the girls, even though they heard them screaming. From the text in the story, this is one of those times I support "as long as the cop gets home safely".

They tried to go in, but began sinking in mud and were afraid they'd get stuck and drown themselves. I fully support that decision. I once had to retrieve some instrumentation that an egghead dropped off the side of our boat while docked in the harbor. The harbor was super silty/muddy. I found the instrument stuck in the mud, but while lifting, opposite forces and all that, sank in myself. I had to lose a fin to the mud to get myself out, and I had an hour's worth of air to keep me calm and thinking, plus 40lbs of buoyancy available in my stab jacket. Having that happen at night, while holding your breath, in non-buoyant street clothes, in zero visibility, would be no bueno. It's the same as a firefighter without protective gear running into a conflagration to save a screaming victim. They'd die along with the victim.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/04/22/dashcam-video-shows-fla-deputies-debating-whether-to-rescue-girls-from-stolen-car-in-pond.html?intcmp=hpbt3
http://www.tbo.com/pinellas-county/documents-released-in-probe-of-teens-who-drowned-in-stolen-car-20160419/

[wmenorr67]

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2016/4/18/report_deputies_trie.html

Compare the mug shot photos in Ben's link to the "wholesome" photos in my link.

[KD5NRH]

If you've got muddy scummy ponds around and a job as any sort of first responder, it might be a good idea to learn how to traverse mud like that.

No, it won't be pleasant, and you'll be filthy, but it's not like the uniform will stay clean while you're in the water anyway.  The mud, however, is dramatically more buoyant than water, so you belly crawl until it's too soupy for that and then switch to something more like a breaststroke.  I've crossed some pretty nasty slime like that, and in worse conditions than they were likely dealing with.  Jeans and a Dickies work shirt, because going home to change would have cost us a calf.  No air tank, no other toys besides a climbing line and harness so the folks on "dry" ground could drag me back if need be, and could haul me and the calf back once I got to it.  (That should be part of any first responder's kit, since something as simple as a wet grassy embankment can leave you stuck in a ditch until somebody comes up with a line.)

[K Frame]

Actually, I think the girls should have gotten training in:

A) Getting out of an underwater car.

B) Not stealing other people's *expletive deleted*it.

[wmenorr67]

If you've got muddy scummy ponds around and a job as any sort of first responder, it might be a good idea to learn how to traverse mud like that.

No, it won't be pleasant, and you'll be filthy, but it's not like the uniform will stay clean while you're in the water anyway.  The mud, however, is dramatically more buoyant than water, so you belly crawl until it's too soupy for that and then switch to something more like a breaststroke.  I've crossed some pretty nasty slime like that, and in worse conditions than they were likely dealing with.  Jeans and a Dickies work shirt, because going home to change would have cost us a calf.  No air tank, no other toys besides a climbing line and harness so the folks on "dry" ground could drag me back if need be, and could haul me and the calf back once I got to it.  (That should be part of any first responder's kit, since something as simple as a wet grassy embankment can leave you stuck in a ditch until somebody comes up with a line.)

What about when said mud is actually underwater, it is dark, and the vehicle is 15 ft underwater.

[makattak]

If you've got muddy scummy ponds around and a job as any sort of first responder, it might be a good idea to learn how to traverse mud like that.

No, it won't be pleasant, and you'll be filthy, but it's not like the uniform will stay clean while you're in the water anyway.  The mud, however, is dramatically more buoyant than water, so you belly crawl until it's too soupy for that and then switch to something more like a breaststroke.  I've crossed some pretty nasty slime like that, and in worse conditions than they were likely dealing with.  Jeans and a Dickies work shirt, because going home to change would have cost us a calf.  No air tank, no other toys besides a climbing line and harness so the folks on "dry" ground could drag me back if need be, and could haul me and the calf back once I got to it.  (That should be part of any first responder's kit, since something as simple as a wet grassy embankment can leave you stuck in a ditch until somebody comes up with a line.)

I'm really not going to expect the police to get training in "mud rescues". That's not the police's job.

Also, I'm not about to second guess them on a dangerous situation, especially at night.

[Ben]

What about when said mud is actually underwater, it is dark, and the vehicle is 15 ft underwater.

Yes. It's a whole nother situation when your breathing hole is underwater.

[BobR]

Actually, I think the girls should have gotten training in:

A) Getting out of an underwater car.

B) Not stealing other people's *expletive deleted*it and running from the police..

FTFY


bob

[grampster]

Reaping what you sow comes to mind here.  As a side note (I didn't read the articles) I would be surprised if the police officers won't carry bad memories of having to make the choice they did.  Having worked in LE, most officers, even when dealing with criminals, would have rather saved them than not.

[dogmush]

This is local to my old house.  I drove past that pond every day for about 14 years going to work.

I also have a bit of experience in traversing mud, muddy bottoms, and mud flats. (Landing Craft, don't you know).  Sorry KD5NRH but that's pretty ignorant.  I get that you've done it, but it's a bad idea.  Submerged mud isn't actually always buoyant. That's why it is submerged.  It's actually very very dangerous.  Where I grew up in AK we lost a handful of people per year when they got stuck in tidal mud, and the tide came in.  And that's not even mentioning the alligators.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3350360/He-hid-wrong-place-Florida-man-killed-eaten-ALLIGATOR-hiding-police-caught-robbing-homes.html
http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/alligators-jaws-catch-suspect-in-florida-lake/
http://www.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/alligator-attack-on-hillsborough-river-left-imprint-in-more-ways-than-one-20140916/

Then assuming you get there, you get to free dive, in the dark, down to a car and try to explain to the occupants that you need to flood it so the car door can open.  Then try to get the maybe can/maybe can't panicked kid back to shore and through the dangerous mud.

I don't blame the cops at all for not going out there for this one. 

Compare the mug shot photos in Ben's link to the "wholesome" photos in my link.

Those photo's are remarkably scantily clad and kinda gang-y.  I'm surprised they didn't find some 6th grade school pictures.

I also hate to pile on someone that has lost a child, I'm sure that's tough no matter what, but this juxtaposition jumped out at me in the article:

The lawyers were hired by Miller’s mother, Natasha Winkler, who said her daughter was a beautiful person and dreamed of working as an lawyer one day.

Deputies went to the home of Kristine Hayes, Miller’s grandmother, who had legal guardianship of the teen, on the morning of March 31. Upon hearing what had happened, Hayes was “extremely emotional and visibly shaken,” investigative documents say.

- See more at: http://www.tbo.com/pinellas-county/documents-released-in-probe-of-teens-who-drowned-in-stolen-car-20160419/#sthash.T6GcytVN.dpuf

NOW she wants to be a mom....

[Perd Hapley]

Another case of black people not believing their own lives mattered. If Michael Brown had three sisters, they would look like these chicks.

[Hawkmoon]

Another case of black people not believing their own lives mattered. If Michael Brown had three sisters, they would look like these chicks.

Black lives matter after they end -- then they get dollar signs attached to them ...

[KD5NRH]

I also have a bit of experience in traversing mud, muddy bottoms, and mud flats. (Landing Craft, don't you know).  Sorry KD5NRH but that's pretty ignorant.  I get that you've done it, but it's a bad idea.  Submerged mud isn't actually always buoyant. That's why it is submerged.

If it's submerged, then a) it's more buoyant than water and b) there's this other stuff on top of it that's exactly as buoyant as water.  Roll over.  You can't even get the swimming merit badge without knowing how to float on your back.

Yes, I suppose floating on your back in water could be an absolutely horrible idea on the chance that the laws of physics might suddenly change dramatically.  OTOH, I can't find any documented incidences of that in recorded history, so I'll risk it.

Where I grew up in AK we lost a handful of people per year when they got stuck in tidal mud, and the tide came in.

Since you're familiar with the pond in question, what exactly is its tidal range?  I know I once spent nearly 20 minutes stuck in a hole with water to my rib cage, and somehow managed to avoid drowning, so I'm doubting that even getting stuck hip deep would have been a real threat, considering that if it's the pond I'm thinking, the spring tide range could be a few microns. 

Then assuming you get there, you get to free dive, in the dark,

Considering I can't see underwater without a mask, this is pretty much what 90% of my dives are like anyway. 

Then try to get the maybe can/maybe can't panicked kid back to shore and through the dangerous mud.

Well, you know, if you've made the huge investment in a good piece of rope, and remembered to leave one end with the guys on shore, then you get them free of the car and put their hands on the rope.  The best plan in any water rescue is to give the victim something else besides you to hold onto whenever possible.  It they can't figure the next bit out, then you just move on to the next one and come back to the idiot when you've attempted all three.

I don't blame the cops at all for not going out there for this one.

Maybe it's just the way I was raised, but <10% chance of me dying vs, let's call it 25% chance of saving at least one of the three who would almost certainly die without help, I'm going.  Don't really care about their crime for the moment either; last I checked, the death penalty is still considered excessive for 15-16 year old kids joy riding.

[brimic]

I'll state, without even a hint of sarcasm, that I'm glad the cops got home safe that night.
Car thieves should be treated as they used to treat horse thieves.

[Andiron]

I'll state, without even a hint of sarcasm, that I'm glad the cops got home safe that night.
Car thieves should be treated as they used to treat horse thieves.

Yup.

Outcome is a huge net positive to society. 

Feel bad for the cops that now get racked over the coals for making the logical call.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Some tile crawlers scent settlement money. Hence the wailing and gnashing of teeth


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[dogmush]

Maybe it's just the way I was raised, but <10% chance of me dying vs, let's call it 25% chance of saving at least one of the three who would almost certainly die without help, I'm going.  Don't really care about their crime for the moment either; last I checked, the death penalty is still considered excessive for 15-16 year old kids joy riding.

That's fine.  You're free to make your own bad decisions*.  What you can't do is try and hold other people accountable for not making them.  It's sad, but those girls died as a direct result of a series of poor decisions that night, and the cops were under no legal or moral obligation to risk themselves to save them from those decision's consequences.  Mom trying to monetize her daughters accidental suicide is pretty repugnant though.  It's disingenuous to refer to it as the death penalty, as that implies this was a result of the justice system and the cops as opposed to the girl's choice.  Make no mistake however, they might not have fully thought it through, but this was the girl's choice.


*Yes, I know, in point of fact, you aren't free.  Cops will stop you from taking risks if they are on the scene, up to and including tazing or shooting you to protect you from risking your life, but that's neither here nor there for this particular conversation.

[grampster]

There are a lot of crimes today that the perps should be treated as horse thieves were.  The notion that we've become more civilized is a strawman in my view, as some crimes are as uncivilized now as they were 100 years ago thus should not be given the benefit or our advancement, but should reap according to their non advance.

[Boomhauer]

These aren't "joyriders" which is still theft by the way, these are career criminals when they have multiple car theft convictions.

[Andiron]

That's fine.  You're free to make your own bad decisions*.  What you can't do is try and hold other people accountable for not making them. 

This.

Knock yourself out,  if the suicidal hero/savior of felons mood strikes you.  The cops in question were under no obligation to die attempting to save these criminals.

[Perd Hapley]

It's sad, but those girls died as a direct result of a series of poor decisions that night...

It's important to add that they were felonious decisions, that placed other people in danger (aside from depriving someone of a very expensive and important piece of equipment, which they may find difficult to replace). Thankfully, there were apparently no innocents harmed during the vehicle pursuit.

Of course, poor judgment, felony crimes, and easily preventable deaths are why I compared this to Michael Brown. Criminals acting as if they didn't value their own lives - and paying for it.

[Hawkmoon]

If it's submerged, then a) it's more buoyant than water

Huh?      

Buoyant means it floats. If it's submerged, it sank -- not floated.

Full Definition of buoyant

:  having buoyancy: as
a :  capable of floating
b :  cheerful, gay
c :  capable of maintaining a satisfactorily high level <a buoyant economy>

[MechAg94]

We are in a time where many if not most police really don't get enough basic police training.  Why is someone here suggesting mud rescue be added to the list of training they don't get?

[Ben]

We are in a time where many if not most police really don't get enough basic police training.  Why is someone here suggesting mud rescue be added to the list of training they don't get?

It isn't just "mud rescue", which seems to be a point he's not getting. This isn't pulling a dogie out of the old watering hole. When you're dealing with a submerged rescue, be it car, boat, or aircraft, a ridiculous number of factors come in to play, from physics, to equipment, to disorientation in the environment.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

The Narrative from The Usual Suspects tries to portray this as they stood around and watches the kids screamed and died this is not the case . for at least some of the cops on scene they weren't even sure the kids are still in the car when it went in the water hence the remark about "if they ghost drove it in there"

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