Author Topic: Ooh, they are freezing relations  (Read 15147 times)

The Rabbi

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #75 on: March 30, 2007, 05:16:17 AM »
"War is the failure of diplomacy."


No - war IS diplomacy - to be particular, it is the military extension of diplomacy.

Not quite.
Quote
diplomacy definition
n.
1. The art or practice of conducting international relations, as in negotiating alliances, treaties, and agreements

War, being expensive, dangerous, and with uncertain outcome, is usually chosen last because every other option (usually capitulation) available is worse.
Just because someone commits an act of war does not obligate the other party to go to war.  Just because someone engages in something other than military action doesn't mean he automatically is rewarding bad behavior.
The best result will be the safe return of the hostages with economic penalty to Iran.  The next best would be safe return with no penalty.  Next best is safe return with some small benefit.  Next would be military action.  Next would be no return and big victory for the Iranians.  Note that military action is way down the list.
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K Frame

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2007, 06:43:18 AM »
"War is the failure of diplomacy."


No - war IS diplomacy - to be particular, it is the military extension of diplomacy.

That's a curious definition, and one that doesn't match up to anything I've ever seen before.

Diplomacy means two or more parties negotiating.

A diplomat is an individual appointed to represent a nation's interests and maintain political, economic, and/or social contacts with the representatives of another nation.

At the point where war breaks out, diplomatic relations are normally suspended, the diplomats are called home, and the situation is turned over to the military.


War may or may not be the result of the failure of diplomacy, but war is certainly not an extension of diplomacy.
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richyoung

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2007, 06:45:25 AM »
War IS negotiating - it is just very forceful negotiating.  As for the rest, there is certainly a number of people who would agree with you - I would humbly submit that these events don't occur in a vacuum, but are in fact skirmishes in a much larger struggle we must not fail to win.
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richyoung

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2007, 07:00:16 AM »
"War is the failure of diplomacy."


No - war IS diplomacy - to be particular, it is the military extension of diplomacy.

That's a curious definition, and one that doesn't match up to anything I've ever seen before.


Caluswitz, "On War" - "War is merely a continuation of politics..."  (although to be fair, he synthesizes the dialectic to further state that it is "..not merely..." politics)


Quote
Diplomacy means two or more parties negotiating.


War is vigorous, violent negoatiating.

Quote
A diplomat is an individual appointed to represent a nation's interests and maintain political, economic, and/or social contacts with the representatives of another nation.


Only partly true.  On occasion, a diplomat TERMINATES or REDUCES political, economic, and cultural contacts with the representatives of another country.  Sometimes, this isn;t even a prelude to war - See: Cuba.

Quote
At the point where war breaks out, diplomatic relations are normally suspended, the diplomats are called home, and the situation is turned over to the military.

You ignore insurgencies, revolutions, insurrections....

Quote
War may or may not be the result of the failure of diplomacy, but war is certainly not an extension of diplomacy.

War and the threat of war have long been a staple of deplomacy, and arranging alliances and aid for war has long been the REASON for diplomacy - see: NATO, Axis, "Zimmerman Telegram", "sabre rattling", "gunboat diplomacy", MAD,...
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2007, 07:22:31 AM »
More on the same topic:

The Fifteen
by John Batchelor  (More by this author)

Posted: 03/26/2007
When the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps attacked Combined Task Force 158's HMS Cornwall's boarding party last week, there was an alarm bell in the halls of history that marked the closing of an era.

The last time that bell sounded, it was the end of Pax Britanica in 1914. The crash of European civilization followed. This time, it is the end of Pax Americana. Xerxes is in the field.  The vain Spartans are gone.   Here comes the grave contest for American civilization.

Tehran was not sending a message.  The attack was not timed to the United Nations Security Council vote to sanction Tehran for flagrant  violations of the Non-Proliferation Treaty.  The attack was not timed to the embassy of the hallucinatory President Ahmadinejad to New York, nor to his cunning, last-moment cancellation.  Nor was the attack timed to the Friday morning prayers in Tehran that, in the voice of Mullah Hashemi Rafsanjani, warned ominously of conspiracies against the Revolution Guide Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Most important to understand, Tehran's original intention of the attack was not to provide suspects for a show trial in order to humiliate a fragile Parliament, nor was Tehran's original aim to grab hostages to barter with the Americans who detained five IRGC special ops weeks ago in Iraq.  That a show trial and bartering have been raised subsequent to the operation is most perilous, and that a Maliki government naval offical has spoken in support of Tehran's lies is most sinister; however, none of this was the motive for the attack.

The attack was specifically aimed at stopping Cornwall from inspecting the contents of the slab-sided dhow freighter waiting to make landfall.  The dhow was deeply in Iraqi waters.  The GPS coordinates of Cornwall and the boarding party are confirmed by credible observers.  There was no ambiguity about territoriality as there was in the IRGC abduction of eight British soldiers in 2004 on the disputed border line of Shatt al-Arab. Tehran's claim that the boarding party was in Iranian waters is naked falsehood. This operation was a swiftly launched strike to stop CTS 158 from discovering a cargo designated for the Mahdist forces harassing the American and British coalition in Iraq.

What is critical about the attack is that it was successful and that the Americans did not answer it.

The IRGC is well-briefed and as deadly as a hair-trigger.  The IRGC does not fear the U.S. Fifth Fleet despite the two carrier battle groups now operating in the Gulf region.   The IRGC does not fear the American expeditionary force in Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, nor does it fear Gen. David Petraeus's so-called surge tactics in Iraq.  The IRGC is so much in command of the Gulf that it can act spontaneously to protect its covert supply routes to its surrogates.  The IRGC has issued orders over the last weeks that the Mahdist chieftains who had sought refuge in Iran while Petraeus launched his battalions are free to return to operations in Iraq.  A maximum alert is in place in Iraq for a major strike on coalition forces.

The information right now is as loud and clear and brutal as it has been in six years of America's battling with the surrogates of the predatory Tehran. What can be heard is a profound war warning. Heretofore, what was well known is that the homicides of al Qaeda are Tehran surrogates, and the attack on New York and Washington was supported before and after by the IRGC; and the next al Qaeda WMD attack on the American mainland will be supported before and after by Tehran.  Also well known was that the homicides of Hizballah, Hamas, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad are Tehran surrogates; and that the plain murder attacks of last summer along northern Israel are on track to be replayed this summer along the Golan, at Gaza, and into Jerusalem itself.

What is fresh is that Tehran has accelerated its plan.  Tehran has its own war calendar.  Tehran is led by an elite murder cult called the Partisans of the Mahdi, all of whom believe, as Twelvers, that the Invisible Mahdi who vanished twelve centuries ago in Mesopotamia will reappear in conditions of hellfire anarchy in order to lead the believers to Paradise.  The Partisans of the Mahdi are committed to provoking a global military vortex in order to satisfy their personal aggrandizement. This logical irrationality makes the timeline for their ambitions both unbelievable and unknowable.

The previous information that the Tehran plan was months not weeks in the future has been cancelled.  There is no certain time.  Perhaps it is the Passover period in Israel and the weeks after April 10. Perhaps we are in a timeless zone, where Tehran will act according to local events and then seize opportunity in any escalation and chaos that follows.

The momentary Tehran-driven escalation of the outrage of the abducted Cornwall boarding party -- taunting to create a show trial or prisoner exchange -- is a stark illustration of how totally Tehran controls the field. Tehran gives or refuses battle, and the Americans must oblige.  This could either be the moment when the weapons go free, or it could be the moment when Tehran softens America for the next wave of provocations.

At the least, Tehran is already using the disinformation claim that the boarding party was in Iran's waters in order to befuddle the opposition, obliging America to choose between its fastidious British ally and the treacherous Baghdad government.  Iraqi Coast Guard official Gen. Hakim Jassim, at the direction of the Maliki government's Mahdist cronies, was speaking with calculated deception when he implied the British were not inside Iraq waters: "We were informed by Iraqi fisherman after they had returned from sea that there were British gunboats in an area that is out of Iraqi control.  We don't know why they were there."   This is an example of the scale of double-crossing that America refuses to see and acknowledge about its Iraqi ally.

What can be seen from early spring is that the dauntless United States Navy and its global intelligence-gathering system cannot prevent Tehran from attacking at will.

What can be observed also is that Pax Americana, the chimerical presumption since the fall of genocidal Berlin and imperialist Tokyo that American policy is irresistible, that this arrogance is gone like the Spartans.

What can be concluded is that America is without a plan to answer the Persians in their apocalyptic passion to conquer. Xerxes is in the field. The 110th Congress's House of Representatives kneels.

What can be concluded also is how far America has fallen away from that fertile summer of 1904 when the cocksure Teddy Roosevelt and his crafty secretary of state, John Hay,in order to excite the Republicans in nomination convention at Chicago sent a grandstanding message about another piratical Moslem warlord. The June 1904 message to the American Consul-Gen. Samuel Gummere at Tangier that swelled the chest of the gun-slinging American people was, "Gummere, Tangier.  We want either Pedicaris alive or Rais Uli dead.  HAY."

And what is the likelihood that Washington and Whitehall will send the appropriate message to Vice Admiral Kevin J. Congriff commanding the Fifth Fleet at Bahrain: "We want either the 15 alive or Ahmadinejad dead"?

Manedwolf

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2007, 07:38:10 AM »
Cannoneer, in the same vein, look at how the British handled the violent, brutal Thugee cult.


CAnnoneer

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2007, 08:07:42 AM »
Quote
I must take issue with fistful's description.  FF's description assumes SS is taking the part of the US/UK/civilization and I cannot make such an assumption with confidence.

I agree. To be a cowardly traitor, he first must be a Westerner, which I myself doubt very much in view of his incessant pro-terrorist and pro-Iranian positions and also after he said he confused "metal" with "mettle" because he did not have his dictionaries with him (WTH?Huh?). I am not even certain he is male, taking into account his arguing style follows the same logical and emotional patterns as a PMS-ing shrew.

However, in both cases, he is undoubtedly a malignant hostile-minded troll. Allowing him to continue propagandizing his brand of calculated misinformation and demagogy on this board is about as rational as granting visas to known terrorists.

The Rabbi

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #82 on: March 30, 2007, 08:12:06 AM »
Quote
I must take issue with fistful's description.  FF's description assumes SS is taking the part of the US/UK/civilization and I cannot make such an assumption with confidence.

I agree. To be a cowardly traitor, he first must be a Westerner, which I myself doubt very much in view of his incessant pro-terrorist and pro-Iranian positions and also after he said he confused "metal" with "mettle" because he did not have his dictionaries with him (WTH?Huh?). I am not even certain he is male, taking into account his arguing style follows the same logical and emotional patterns as a PMS-ing shrew.

However, in both cases, he is undoubtedly a malignant hostile-minded troll. Allowing him to continue propagandizing his brand of calculated misinformation and demagogy on this board is about as rational as granting visas to known terrorists.

Actually, with your misinformation, illogical posts, and war-mongering I always suspected you were the troll here.  Or an FBI plant.
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HankB

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #83 on: March 30, 2007, 08:50:14 AM »
Diplomacy means two or more parties negotiating.
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice Doggie" until you can find a rock.
                                                                             -- Will Rogers

Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as soldiers are for finishing it...You take diplomacy out of war, and the thing would fall flat in a week.
                                                                              -- Will Rogers


In the matter of the captured Brits . . . I was wondering what the heck the Brit frigate was up to while their sailor in the rubber boats were being seized, and how far away they were. I heard part of a report on the radio that the frigate HAD seen what was happening, and contacted London for instructions (!) . . . at which time they were ordered to stand down. If true - and I can't vouch for it's accuracy - this report would seem to indicate criminal negligence on the part of the Brit leadership, first, for imposing ROE's that require permission to engage when encountering hostile action, and second, for ordering the frigate to stand down.

Actually, something about the whole thing smells . . .
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #84 on: March 30, 2007, 10:17:05 AM »
Quote
Actually, with your misinformation, illogical posts, and war-mongering I always suspected you were the troll here.  Or an FBI plant.

Please provide examples of misinformation or failure of logic in my posts.

On the other hand, "War-mongering", "FBI plant"?? That's priceless.  laugh

De Selby

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #85 on: March 30, 2007, 10:26:00 AM »
CAnnoneer,

Your posts are totally unscientific.  Mind reading, psychoanalysis, and "gender analysis" of text on a page is about as far from a science as astrology.  I'm really unimpressed-for someone who touts the primacy of the scientific method, you sure are easily consumed by passions, and forced into spouting off about the full range of emotional topics: war, Jews, genocide, secret agents...etc etc.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #86 on: March 30, 2007, 10:36:50 AM »

In the matter of the captured Brits . . . I was wondering what the heck the Brit frigate was up to while their sailor in the rubber boats were being seized, and how far away they were. I heard part of a report on the radio that the frigate HAD seen what was happening, and contacted London for instructions (!) . . . at which time they were ordered to stand down. If true - and I can't vouch for it's accuracy - this report would seem to indicate criminal negligence on the part of the Brit leadership, first, for imposing ROE's that require permission to engage when encountering hostile action, and second, for ordering the frigate to stand down.

Actually, something about the whole thing smells . . .
I do not doubt that at all. Since when does a boarding party leave sight of the ship?
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #87 on: March 30, 2007, 10:36:59 AM »
Quote
Your posts are totally unscientific.  Mind reading, psychoanalysis, and "gender analysis" of text on a page is about as far from a science as astrology. 

The troll is fumbling to press my buttons. That's so cute! laugh ROTFLMAO

De Selby

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #88 on: March 30, 2007, 10:40:28 AM »
Cute? What's cute? I've never seen a single study measuring or weighing cute. I don't know what you're talking about.

Is this something you learned in psychoanalysis class?  Or is it something that only astrologers and internet mind readers are privy to?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2007, 10:45:08 AM »
You, sir, are an idiot.


However, in both cases, he is undoubtedly a malignant hostile-minded troll. Allowing him to continue propagandizing his brand of calculated misinformation and demagogy on this board is about as rational as granting visas to known terrorists.


I always suspected you were the troll here.  Or an FBI plant.


CAnnoneer,

...you sure are easily consumed by passions, and forced into spouting off...


Well, at least no one used the c-word.    rolleyes
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RevDisk

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2007, 10:49:26 AM »
Cute? What's cute? I've never seen a single study measuring or weighing cute. I don't know what you're talking about.

Is this something you learned in psychoanalysis class?  Or is it something that only astrologers and internet mind readers are privy to?

Be polite and try to take the high road, student.  Personal comments need to go to PM or email.
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De Selby

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #91 on: March 30, 2007, 10:52:53 AM »
RevDisk,

Fair enough.  Sometimes I think it's a good thing to respond if you can't post on any thread without the same person calling you a troll, traitor, etc etc...it's not a minor or irregular set of insults I'm trying to respond to politely here.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #92 on: March 30, 2007, 11:08:45 AM »
If it helps, and because I don't want to slip back in the post-count ratings  grin, I don't think either CAnnon or shootin are trolls, nor is fistful.

I think all are sincere (to me, a troll has no belief in what they say, it is merely for effect) even though I often seriously disagree with all of them.

Anyway, perhaps a better charge could be levied?

Oh...

Irwin however, is a little girl's punching bag.  Nuff said.  laugh
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De Selby

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #93 on: March 30, 2007, 11:12:08 AM »
I vote Carebear for chief detente negotiator between the US and Iran. 



"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #94 on: March 30, 2007, 11:29:14 AM »
I vote Carebear for chief detente negotiator between the US and Iran. 





I promise to try for a peaceful resolution, however, if they remain intransigent, I will beat them like Mike Irwin at a Princess Party.  laugh
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #95 on: March 30, 2007, 12:17:38 PM »
Quote
I promise to try for a peaceful resolution, however, if they remain intransigent, I will beat them like Mike Irwin at a Princess Party.  laugh

Be sure to use a pork chop as fundanoodles. But, as a "war-mongering FBI plant", I can tell you right now you can only get the job done with the handle of a gov-issue 10mm Glock.

Iapetus

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #96 on: March 30, 2007, 01:03:10 PM »
Of course, there is always the posibility that the Brits had got their position wrong.

Their GPS system might have been set to the wrong datum.  (Or alternatively, the Iranian's might have had theirs set wrongly, and so genuinely believed the Brits were trespassing).


Or alternatively, it might have been inappropriate to be using GPS in that area.  I don't know what chart they were using, but I've looked at some of the UKHO charts of that area, and they carry a warning to the effect that - because they are based on old surveys - the lat/long of features on the chart may be inaccurate, and positions should be determined by means other than GPS.


And of course there is the possibility that they were delibirately sent into Iranian waters.  It would be nice to think the Blair government is more trustworthy than the nuts in Iran, but unfortunately I can't be too confident of that.

Manedwolf

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #97 on: March 30, 2007, 03:40:50 PM »
Or alternatively, it might have been inappropriate to be using GPS in that area.  I don't know what chart they were using, but I've looked at some of the UKHO charts of that area, and they carry a warning to the effect that - because they are based on old surveys - the lat/long of features on the chart may be inaccurate, and positions should be determined by means other than GPS.

That doesn't make sense. GPS gives absolute position, it has nothing to do with charts whether they're new or old. You can take the position data and put it on a NASA picture of the globe if you want to.

What other means? There's GPS, inertial navigation or a sextant, as far as I know. What others do you mean?

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #98 on: March 30, 2007, 04:12:19 PM »
Or alternatively, it might have been inappropriate to be using GPS in that area.  I don't know what chart they were using, but I've looked at some of the UKHO charts of that area, and they carry a warning to the effect that - because they are based on old surveys - the lat/long of features on the chart may be inaccurate, and positions should be determined by means other than GPS.

That doesn't make sense. GPS gives absolute position, it has nothing to do with charts whether they're new or old. You can take the position data and put it on a NASA picture of the globe if you want to.

What other means? There's GPS, inertial navigation or a sextant, as far as I know. What others do you mean?

LORAN?  Radio telemetry?  Albatri?
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Gewehr98

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Re: Ooh, they are freezing relations
« Reply #99 on: March 30, 2007, 04:34:11 PM »
Yeah, the Iranians are on an even keel - NOT.



Execution (Take note of the correct spelling, smacktard!) for alleged trespassing?  Yeah, sure, ok.  Shades of 1979 again.
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