Patriot Front Marching in DC

[MillCreek]

I'm not going to watch the video, but in the one still pic of that march at least 4 of the 10 flags are the"Patriot Front" flag with red and white chevrons and some gay little design in the canton.

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/patriot-front

These little tweeps need a solid beating, or maybe a pillory. Feds or not.

I just looked at the flag.  Is that supposed to be a P-38 can opener?

[WLJ]

I just looked at the flag.  Is that supposed to be a P-38 can opener?

It's a Fasces. 
The word Fascist comes from it and was used as the symbol of The National Fascist Party

In case you're wondering what a fasces is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces
Note it's use on the Seal of the US Senate, coins, and other things.

[WLJ]

The symbol is used all over the place in the US and I'm amazed the SJWs haven't started attacking it yet like they have the swastika.
Well unless you count when they see it on a flag carried by a bunch of white guys then it's a evil far right wing white supremacy symbol

[WLJ]

The fact that since it is so often associated with fascism and them using it screams false flag to me

[dogmush]

Don't believe the ADL, I was just offering a picture of their flag.

Believe their own words: https://patriotfront.us/

They are racist ahole, and don't deserve any sympathy at all. They may very well be racist aholes being spun up by Feds in their movement,  but I'd be fine with beating down the feds and the racist aholes.

I'm also sick of the what aboutism. BLM sucks, and are ALSO racist aholes. ANTIFA are communist aholes, and suck. We don't have to pick a side between these groups. We should stomp ALL of them out.

If you can read the entirety of that website and still feel sympathy for them, you need to reevaluate yourself.   If they are 100% all feds and the whole thing is a false flag, then they still deserve condemnation because they are faking racist ahole that well.

[WLJ]

Don't believe the ADL, I was just offering a picture of their flag.

Believe their own words: https://patriotfront.us/

They are racist ahole, and don't deserve any sympathy at all. They may very well be racist aholes being spun up by Feds in their movement,  but I'd be fine with beating down the feds and the racist aholes.

I'm also sick of the what aboutism. BLM sucks, and are ALSO racist aholes. ANTIFA are communist aholes, and suck. We don't have to pick a side between these groups. We should stomp ALL of them out.

If you can read the entirety of that website and still feel sympathy for them, you need to reevaluate yourself.   If they are 100% all feds and the whole thing is a false flag, then they still deserve condemnation because they are faking racist ahole that well.

No way shape or form feeling sympathy for them. Mostly what I've seen on here is that much of what they're saying and whatnot is so over the top stereotypical of how the left describes the right that many think they're a false flag group.

[WLJ]

Whether or not they're really a false flag group I can't say 100% for sure. Just when I see over the top BS that too perfectly fits a stereotypical template the alarm bells go off and we've seen attempts at false flag before.
Either way they're laughable and haven't really seem to have caused any real problems.

[Ben]

I'm also sick of the what aboutism. BLM sucks, and are ALSO racist aholes. ANTIFA are communist aholes, and suck. We don't have to pick a side between these groups. We should stomp ALL of them out.

"Whataboutism" is absolutely valid, IMO. If these groups were all treated equally under the law, I might have a different opinion. Not treated equally, but equally under the law.

If the patriot front guys actually do riot, then bring the full force of the law down on them. As should be done, but never is, with BLM and antifa. I loathe antifa, but if they could manage to march and chant without physically attacking people, kidnapping people on the street, or destroying property, they can chant and march all they want as far as I'm concerned.

Government entities and the MSM constantly protect and/or make excuses for two of the above groups, but want the other group arrested for not doing anything illegal - even for "pre-crimes".

All three groups should be able to freely peacefully be out in public, even if I can't stand them. That's their right. All three groups should face the same punishments for violent behavior. Until that happens, you'll see me continue to use, "whataboutism".

[dogmush]

Personally I think you're backwards Ben.  We shouldn't give the white racist aholes any leeway because of leeway given to black or red racist aholes.we shouldn't tolerate any of them.

There may well be feds in that group, but Rousseau isn't. There's plenty of genuine aholes in that group.

I also think that the kinda of whataboutism were discussing here leads too easily to the sympathy you expressed for them.

[French G.]

Need a jurisdiction to lock them all up with no bail. Then you would know who the feds were when someone came to get them.

[Jim147]

Do you think they got a group discount at the 511 store?

[Ben]

Personally I think you're backwards Ben.  We shouldn't give the white racist aholes any leeway because of leeway given to black or red racist aholes.we shouldn't tolerate any of them.

If it sounds like that, no, I don't want to give them leeway. I don't want the other groups to get leeway. That is with the caveat that any of them are committing violence.

If they are peacefully marching, not blocking the public from going about their business, etc., they (JMO) get to say whatever stupid stuff they want, even if I hate it. All of them. The KKK and BLM are philosophically the same thing, as far as I'm concerned. I don't want any of them arrested for "pre-crimes" though, like these patriot guys were in Idaho.

You and I get to peacefully make fun of any and all of them for their philosophies as well.

[Perd Hapley]

I haven't really been following these guys. Have they assaulted anyone, or damaged any property since they suddenly appeared out of nowhere? Have they killed anyone, or incited violence? Have they blocked any roads?

[dogmush]

The guy tagged as their leader, Rousseau, was involved with Vanguard America at the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. Vanguard America is the group that James Fields marched with before running people over.

The various white nationalist groups, much like ANTIFA, BLM, and other leftist groups, aren't neccessary distinct from each other in membership.

Note: I'm not saying they should all be rounded up and jailed with no bail, but let's don't pretend they are peaceful misunderstood white nationalists. I would also say that any community they operate in should suggest they leave, forcefully.

[Perd Hapley]

The guy tagged as their leader, Rousseau, was involved with Vanguard America at the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. Vanguard America is the group that James Fields marched with before running people over.

The various white nationalist groups, much like ANTIFA, BLM, and other leftist groups, aren't neccessary distinct from each other in membership.

Note: I'm not saying they should all be rounded up and jailed with no bail, but let's don't pretend they are peaceful misunderstood white nationalists. I would also say that any community they operate in should suggest they leave, forcefully.

If that's an answer to my question, it sounds like a no.

[cordex]

Dogmush,

I think we agree that these guys are some percentage fascist, racist trash and some percentage of people pretending to be fascist, racist trash.

In what ways should they be handled differently by our government as a group and as individuals than Marxist racist trash?

[dogmush]

Dogmush,

I think we agree that these guys are some percentage fascist, racist trash and some percentage of people pretending to be fascist, racist trash.

In what ways should they be handled differently by our government as a group and as individuals than Marxist racist trash?

I don't feel they should be handled differently than Marxist racist trash.  I would like to see both groups handled as the Patriot Front is.  Which is to say that they should be watched closely as they march and spew their bullshit, denounced by the local community and local leaders as racist aholes, and when they go so far as to plus up with pyro and an written ops plan for a violence at a protests, arrested and charged by the justice system.  I would add that it would tickle me pink if no local business would serve them as well.

I agree that leftist groups are being let off easy, and that is adding to the left/right rift and will lead to more violence down the line.  My contention is that Patriot Front is not being treated unfairly, they have earned what LE attention they receive with their words, actions, and the actions of the people they associate with.  I'd love to see that same attention paid to the Marxist racists.  That's the answer: don't allow ANY violent extremism, not wish he had more groups added to the "free pass" list.

[cordex]

I don't feel they should be handled differently than Marxist racist trash.  I would like to see both groups handled as the Patriot Front is.  Which is to say that they should be watched closely as they march and spew their bullshit, denounced by the local community and local leaders as racist aholes, and when they go so far as to plus up with pyro and an written ops plan for a violence at a protests, arrested and charged by the justice system.  I would add that it would tickle me pink if no local business would serve them as well.

I'm largely in agreement, however I'm not sure that I'd consider a single smoke grenade "plus[ing] up with pyro" (certainly not anything like equivalent to the way we've seen leftist rioters do with repurposed firework shells and Molotov cocktails), and while I've seen many reference to written plans in reporting, I couldn't find anything with the actual text of those plans or any indication that the plans referred to unlawful behavior.  The most detailed description I found after a brief search was:

"(One) document was typed and discussed the group being there to raise a voice against the moral depravity which permits events such as this to take place," writes Coeur d'Alene Police Officer Alan Gilbert. "There was also a typed organizational document outlining call locations, primary checkpoints, drill times, prep times and observation windows. There were also GPS coordinates for a drop point with two backup plans."

From this description I'm getting the impression of a mission statement and logistics, not so much moustache twirling plans detailing criminal conspiracy.

But maybe the notoriously right-wing-extremists at CNN are covering up for their fellow travelers.

I agree that leftist groups are being let off easy, and that is adding to the left/right rift and will lead to more violence down the line.  My contention is that Patriot Front is not being treated unfairly, they have earned what LE attention they receive with their words, actions, and the actions of the people they associate with.  I'd love to see that same attention paid to the Marxist racists.  That's the answer: don't allow ANY violent extremism, not wish he had more groups added to the "free pass" list.

If leftist groups are routinely being let off easy for their violence and riots, then Patriot Front is being treated unfairly - especially where they have not yet crossed the line into violent extremism and are still at the "orderly marching while saying things I disagree with" phase. 

I'd also note that if ANTIFA and BLM were being arrested for plans to lawfully march in protest or because their planned protest might turn into a riot I'd also be concerned despite my dislike for what they advocate for.

You're a well informed and thoughtful person, so it is possible you've seen more evidence than I have to back up your position, but my perspective is that while you are correctly equating the immorality of the PF's beliefs to the immorality of BLM/ANTIFA beliefs, you seem to be incorrectly drawing an equivalence regarding violent and unlawful behavior.

[Ben]

I'm largely in agreement, however I'm not sure that I'd consider a single smoke grenade "plus[ing] up with pyro" (certainly not anything like equivalent to the way we've seen leftist rioters do with repurposed firework shells and Molotov cocktails), and while I've seen many reference to written plans in reporting, I couldn't find anything with the actual text of those plans or any indication that the plans referred to unlawful behavior.  The most detailed description I found after a brief search was:From this description I'm getting the impression of a mission statement and logistics, not so much moustache twirling plans detailing criminal conspiracy.

I can't find it right now, but local news released an image of the part of the plan that CDA PD released. The worst you could say about it was that there was language in it that suggested they might have wanted to verbally antagonize some pride people, then retreat. The CDA police chief was adamant about "imminent riot" based on the documentation in the U-haul. If that's the case, then why not release the language that indicated a riot was inbound? I suspect what we saw on the local news was the worst part of their "ops plan" . As to the single "smoke grenade", it has never been shown. We still don't know if it was a real "tactical pyrotechnic" or if it was a gopher bomb. Both are legal to possess in Idaho.

The above continues to be my biggest problem with this incident and why I sound like I'm supporting what Patriot Front does (which I don't). Everything I have read locally indicates to me that the liberal police chief in CdA arrested them for "pre-crime". I worry about the slippery slope, which is why it's important to me to defend the legal activities of people I don't like.

An analogy would be what we have seen many times in the past - someone open carrying a pistol in a state where it's legal to do so, but in a city that disapproves of such (with no local ordinances forbidding it). It may not be smart, but it's legal, and we have all seen the videos of what the cops do to these people. Few of the interactions are pleasant.

[dogmush]

Part of it is, I'm not really upset with the Idaho thing.  they weren't J6'd, they were arrested, some of them were hit with misdemeanor charges based on the plan (which I admit I haven't read) and released. 

Part of it is that I keep seeing the same names of individuals moving from group to group, so while "Patriot Front" hasn't been violent, "Vanguard America" and "Identity Evropa" certainly have, and they have significant overlap of membership.  In the case of VA, almost 100%.  PF sprang up from the VA discord servers after one of that groups members killed someone in Charlottesville, and they decided to "retire" that brand.  I am unwilling to let them play the "we aren't violent that's the other BAD white supremacist's" game when it is largely the same individuals.

I also don't (or try not to) conflate actual violence, with unlawful, or distasteful behavior.  Distasteful behavior, like the recent march in Boston, should be allowed by law enforcement, but condemned by the community.  Unlawful behavior like the alleged plans for violence in Idaho, or the trespassing in the capitol, should be dealt with by Law Enforcement and the Justice system.  An arrest and misdemeanor charges seem appropriate, and gives them their day in court if they want to argue they were targeted.  Actual violence like Portland or Kenosha should be water cannoned off the streets, and arrested for felonies from the gutter, and those charges should be pressed.   I am aware that we are having real problems following through on that last part, but still that's the should.

[cordex]

Part of it is, I'm not really upset with the Idaho thing.  they weren't J6'd, they were arrested, some of them were hit with misdemeanor charges based on the plan (which I admit I haven't read) and released. 

If the charges are legit and The Plan detailed their imminent criminal actions as you imply, then sure.  If not, arresting someone and charging them specifically to prevent lawful (if odious) political speech seems like it might fall afoul of something that used to be important.

Part of it is that I keep seeing the same names of individuals moving from group to group, so while "Patriot Front" hasn't been violent, "Vanguard America" and "Identity Evropa" certainly have, and they have significant overlap of membership.  In the case of VA, almost 100%.  PF sprang up from the VA discord servers after one of that groups members killed someone in Charlottesville, and they decided to "retire" that brand.  I am unwilling to let them play the "we aren't violent that's the other BAD white supremacist's" game when it is largely the same individuals.

Yeah, I'm sure they have significant overlapping membership and similar ideas and blah blah blah.  As far as I'm concerned they're all scum.  However, using literally one attack to justify labeling any similar or connected group as "violent extremists" is stretching it. 

Maybe you haven't considered which groups you belong to that share members with other groups that have had a member do something evil.

I also don't (or try not to) conflate actual violence, with unlawful, or distasteful behavior.  Distasteful behavior, like the recent march in Boston, should be allowed by law enforcement, but condemned by the community.  Unlawful behavior like the alleged plans for violence in Idaho, or the trespassing in the capitol, should be dealt with by Law Enforcement and the Justice system.  An arrest and misdemeanor charges seem appropriate, and gives them their day in court if they want to argue they were targeted.  Actual violence like Portland or Kenosha should be water cannoned off the streets, and arrested for felonies from the gutter, and those charges should be pressed.   I am aware that we are having real problems following through on that last part, but still that's the should.

I agree with that, I'm just not sure that I've seen anything to indicate that the Idaho thing falls where you file it.

[dogmush]

How do we feel about this story?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-man-wearing-antifa-gear-allegedly-targets-florida-rally-police-find-explosives-at-home

[Ben]

How do we feel about this story?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-man-wearing-antifa-gear-allegedly-targets-florida-rally-police-find-explosives-at-home

I'm not sure where you're going with that (not an accusation, I'm actually unsure)? The article said he had an illegal explosive device on him.

Smith was arrested by police shortly after 7:30 p.m., and police searched his backpack and found a pipe explosive device, along with a "Direct Action Checklist," which lists what clothing he wore, along with "gear," including a "gas mask and filters, pepper spray, smoke rockets and flammable rags," according to Gualtieri.

I don't know, other than the pipe bomb, what is legal or illegal to possess in that state. I will say that "flammable rags" sounds a lot like how the patriot front was accused of having "spears" which were actually their flag poles. I'm not sure how LE making *expletive deleted*it up helps either side of this argument? A pipe bomb would be a clear and legitimate reason to arrest someone.

[dogmush]

It wasn't a pipe bomb, The Pinellas County sheriff was just better at phrasing things to sound like they were being reasonable.  All charges were dropped when it was pointed out that his explosives were completely legal smoke devices.

And yet, it is entirely plausible that he was indeed there to throw that pyro at one of the J6 protesters, and very probably injure them, so the deputies scooping him up mid plan very likely did prevent violence at that rally.

I'm not trying to catch anyone out with this or accuse anyone of hypocrisy, there aren't necessarily easy right answers to "How do you handle violent racists".  At least on of the dudes arrested in Idaho has personally committed violence while affiliated with a different group. I recognize his name from AT circulars. would they have chucked smoke into the Pride Parade and smacked people with poles?  Individuals there have done it before.

I understand the 1A issues, which is why I've never said they shouldn't march and wave their gay little can opener flag.  I'm just unwilling to cut a group of people that give each other "Sieg Heil"s any slack once they look to be progressing towards confrontation.  Should we wait for pyro to fly?   

[230RN]

Wrong thread.  Sorry.