Author Topic: Bridge collapse in Baltimore  (Read 2050 times)

WLJ

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2024, 10:18:43 AM »
Saying around two dozen cars were on the bridge. Not sure if that figure includes cars on parts that didn't collapse

Quote
Rescue crews are continuing their efforts to save those impacted by the accident, with around two dozen cars believed to have been on the bridge at the time.

Around 20 construction workers were also working on the bridge at the time, sending them plummeting into the frigid 47-degree water.

Wiedefeld added that the construction crew were not working on anything related to the structural integrity of the bridge, and were fixing potholes at the time. 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13239953/Singaporean-Dali-Baltimore-propulsion-bridge-collapse.html
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dogmush

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2024, 10:19:41 AM »
Sail area, that was the term I couldn't get out of my head this morning.

Always the possibility something shorted out causing the rudder to kick over.
But like I said we shall see. It's still early in the investigation and info outflow. Something may have happened we're completely unaware of

True, weird things can happen, but Occam's Razor:  Rusty ass Singaporean flagged boat that's crew clearly didn't have their E-Gen running or set correctly?  I'll take "Someone *expletive deleted*ed up and did something they weren't supposed to because of poor training" for $700.

Ships have multiple, independent, redundant systems for just this reason.  So that if you lose a generator (or anything else) near an obstacle you can keep control of the boat and not hit things. 

Ben

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2024, 10:30:35 AM »
Big difference between a military "we need this channel cleared now!" and a government red tape clogged operation. I'm thinking 3 months min. We shall see. Hopefully your estimate is closer.

That was actually a big factor in the exercise I did. EPA had a major presence, regardless of it being a major disaster, caused by terrorism, and potentially devastating to inland food supplies within like three weeks, they were there talking regulations, and USCG was factoring them in. I was there from the oil spill response side, which even without EPA involvement, and operational only, was potentially a hold up just for booming areas for salvage crews to work, for the worst case scenario of all fuel on board bursting out.

It has been over 20 years, but I recall the major parameters being a container ship (we might have looked at a car carrier as well) being sunk inside the breakwater, kind of in the worst possible place for ships maneuvering to the cranes. Sunk via explosives hidden in conex boxes. The blast was big enough that the FBI guys said that there would have been building damage on shore from the shockwave.  I can't remember for sure, but how the ship was damaged/sunk had a lot to do (worst case scenario) with how fast the port could be cleared. Also there was like at least a week waiting for assets to arrive to do some parts of the job.
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WLJ

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2024, 10:42:41 AM »
The gov is saying cars were stopped from crossing the bridge before the collision.
But he also says the ship was moving at a "very rapid speed". Reports I've seen are it was moving at 7.6kts so... what?
 
Quote
Ship was moving at 'very rapid speed'

Governor Moore says the ship was moving towards the bridge at a "very rapid speed".

He said the cargo ship's operators called a "mayday' - an emergency signal - but the vessel's speed appeared to be too fast to avoid the incident.

However, he said the distress call did ensure more cars were stopped from crossing the bridge, averting greater disaster.

"These people are heroes," he said. "They saved lives last night."
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-68663071?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6602d83b683d4b45f9380354%26Bridge%20will%20be%20rebuilt%262024-03-26T14%3A16%3A52.775Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:aa37f81f-a007-4496-81a3-317ec4c12a7f&pinned_post_asset_id=6602d83b683d4b45f9380354&pinned_post_type=share
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HankB

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2024, 10:51:00 AM »
. . . . I guess I already heard someone mention conspiracy theories about a 3rd party hacking the ship.  However, as mentioned above, there are busier ports that would have a greater impact.  Which then makes you wonder if the security reaction is what someone wanted.  Further down the hole, you get to wondering if this is part of the pre-election emergency actions to keep Biden in power.  That rabbit hole goes on quite a ways.
Conspiracy theories WILL proliferate.  [tinfoil]  Practice run for a bigger port. Pirates took over the ship at gunpoint. (Gun Control!). DEI hires didn't know what they were doing. Sabotage. Harbor pilot was drunk. Joe Hazelwood's younger brother was the captain. And so forth and so on. Very likely all nonsense.

Although as a landlubber, I DO wonder why the ship made what seemed to be a sharp turn towards the bridge support.

True, weird things can happen, but Occam's Razor:  Rusty ass Singaporean flagged boat that's crew clearly didn't have their E-Gen running or set correctly?  I'll take "Someone *expletive deleted*ed up and did something they weren't supposed to because of poor training" for $700 . . .
I'm NOT going to bet against that scenario. Just about every industry has been cutting staff and training to the bone to save money, it wouldn't surprise me if something along those lines has been taking place in the maritime arena.
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dogmush

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2024, 11:15:39 AM »
This guy did basically the same thing I did syncing video and AIS, he just has a computer set up to share:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N39w6aQFKSQ

You can see what I was talking about, where when she was drifting, she was basically on the trackline with just a subtle southward drift and basically no heading change.  That is consistent with engine on, rudder stuck in last position within a half a degree or so of mid.  Then the power comes back on, they peg the throttles, and she veers to starboard with a massive heading change.  That is NOT consistent with wind drift.

I will amend my previous thinking out loud that if they went full astern and held it that could cause the heading change.  Torque from the prop will spin the boat around, and since the propwash is no longer over the rudder you lose like 80% of rudder authority, sometimes more, when full astern.  A crash stop on my boat often leaves you 20 or so degrees off heading, and that's with counter-rotating props.

In addition to not having enough time to turn, they had nowhere near enough time to stop (kinda obvious now) and even if they did manage to get her stopped that puts them trying to hold the vessel in place, while having power problems, inside a harbor, which is a really weird decision to make.  That close to the bridge when the power came back the right call would have been to come to dead slow to maintain steerage but bleed speed, correct your course the degree or two north you need and try to make it under the bridge before anything else goes wrong.  Once you clear the bridge, you have all the water in the world to drift around and wait for tugs to show up and help.  I wonder if the pilot or the skipper made the call to crash stop.

Additionally this picture post collision clearly shows the port anchor housed.  If you are trying to crash stop before a bridge you'd drop the anchor you have on standby for just that reason.  The shipping dude said they were standby on their port anchor (I can't verify that) but they didn't use it, even though it would have pulled them away from the pylon.

I really want to hear the bridge recorder transcript. It certainly appears somebody made some real bad calls for close quarters maneuvering.

WLJ

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2024, 01:31:02 PM »
Quote
Maryland Transportation Secretary Paul J. Wiedefeld said eight people were on the bridge when it collapsed, and two of them were rescued from the water, with one declining medical treatment and the other being taken to the hospital.

Officials said they have spotted five vehicles submerged under water thanks to infrared and side-scan sonar technology - three passenger vehicles, a cement truck and a fifth vehicle.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13240657/baltimore-bridge-collapse-ship.html

Could have been much worse but workers (repairing potholes) on the bridge did manged to stop many cars after the ship issued a mayday. How it got relayed to them so fast I'm not seeing mentioned yet.

Quote
The crew of the cargo ship that struck the Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore lost power and issued a mayday in the moments before the disaster, Maryland Gov. Wes Moore said.

The container ship Dali sent the mayday in time for authorities to stop traffic from entering the bridge, limiting the number of vehicles involved in what officials have called a "mass casualty event."

"We're thankful that between the mayday and the collapse that we had officials who were able to begin to stop the flow of traffic so more cars were not on the bridge," Moore said.

Authorities said a crew of eight construction workers were on the bridge, in addition to any traffic at the time of the collapse.
https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/us-baltimore-bridge-collapse-mass-casualty-event-03-26-2024
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WLJ

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2024, 01:35:32 PM »
From posts I've seen the tin-foil hatters are out, some claiming there's no way a ship could knock down that bridge. Sort of like what we saw with the "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" crowd
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K Frame

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2024, 01:36:20 PM »
From posts I've seen the tin-foil hatters are out, some claiming there's no way a ship could knock down that bridge. Sort of like what we saw with the "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" crowd

Jesus Christ...
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dogmush

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2024, 01:37:57 PM »
Bridge work crews will have Marine VHFs on the job site and monitor Ch16.  Mostly so they can tell boats if they F up and drop something or break the bridge, but it's SOP.  They probably directly heard the Mayday go out.

MechAg94

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2024, 01:50:10 PM »
From posts I've seen the tin-foil hatters are out, some claiming there's no way a ship could knock down that bridge. Sort of like what we saw with the "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" crowd
That ought to be fun. 
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WLJ

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2024, 01:50:23 PM »
Bridge work crews will have Marine VHFs on the job site and monitor Ch16.  Mostly so they can tell boats if they F up and drop something or break the bridge, but it's SOP.  They probably directly heard the Mayday go out.

Got it. I figured it would have to be relayed.
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Angel Eyes

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Jim147

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2024, 03:04:58 PM »
https://twitter.com/monsterhunter45/status/1772636648318046534

 :angel:


An early one was this is just to distract from Biden throwing Israel under the bus to save his campaign.
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MechAg94

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2024, 04:39:15 PM »
https://twitter.com/monsterhunter45/status/1772636648318046534

 :angel:
Well, my father's, mother's, cousin's former roommate told me all about his days as a janitor on a cruise ship so I am a bit of an expert on these things.   :angel: :old:
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2024, 05:41:03 PM »
Has anyone blamed Trump yet?

I know a few have tried to pin it on Da Joos.
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2024, 06:00:09 PM »
Some video footage of the ship after the collision:

https://twitter.com/Dragonsoul9Fire/status/1772678704935620923

Probably best to ignore most of the comments.  Lots of [tinfoil]
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Ben

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2024, 07:01:47 PM »
« Last Edit: March 26, 2024, 09:16:47 PM by Ben »
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griz

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2024, 09:13:24 PM »
^^  So it's the bridge's fault and the ship was fighting for the rights of..........somebody?
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BobR

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2024, 09:37:38 PM »
I just cannot listen to the talking heads about this anymore, so many experts who know exactly what was going on from a minute or two of video. Douches.


bob

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2024, 10:29:14 PM »
At least we can be reasonably certain of what DIDN'T happen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM
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JTHunter

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Angel Eyes

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2024, 12:08:16 AM »
Now hear me out ...

https://twitter.com/macgregor63/status/1772767358911729677

(might be a bit too far)
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K Frame

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2024, 07:51:57 AM »
Bets on the bridge getting a new woke name when it's rebuilt?

https://twitchy.com/brettt/2024/03/26/ap-gives-us-a-biography-of-controversial-figure-francis-scott-key-n2394433


It's going to be named the King Turner Truth Douglas DuBois Jackson Tubman Evers Emancipation Juneteenth Reparations Memorial Bridge.

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WLJ

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Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2024, 08:13:32 AM »
Quote
The bridge was built in 1977 for more than $60 million, which is around $300 million today when adjusted for inflation.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/safety-investigators-probe-whether-dirty-fuel-contributed-francis-scott-key-bridge-collapse

Bet rebuild will cost well north of $1b and it wouldn't shock me $2b
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