Walking dead season 6 (spoilers within)

[K Frame]

Eat a dick, Eugene!

[charby]

Eat a dick, Eugene!

I knew you'd be posting that.

[Ben]

What, no reloading equipment available in the WD universe? Most of us make thousands of rounds on a bench, and they need a whole factory?* How is Eugene gonna make primers?

I did like that he brought up ammo as currency though. :)

*I understand that the average fan does not understand.

[K Frame]

Well, he specifically talked about LEAD, so I take it to mean that they are literally going to manufacture bullets, and not just talking "bullets" as an analog for reloaded cartridges.

[Ben]

Though he also mentioned using spent casings, which is why I figured they were talking about reloads. Plus bullets (vs cartridges) probably wouldn't be much of a currency unless they were trading with people that already reload.

[K Frame]

My guess is that actual components are a LOT harder to locate in quantity than spent cases. Spent cases are going to be pretty easy to come by is my guess.

Remember at Terminus (during the killing floor scene, right before Carol makes her entrance), the *expletive deleted*bag leader (Rick later introduced him to the red handled machete) was going from person to person asking how many rounds they fired. I seem to recall him mentioning something about reloading in that exchange.

Also, remember the season before there were several times that they showed the storage room at Woodbury, and there was reloading equipment (Lee, I think) on the shelves.

Hell, if they had to they could, even manufacture cases. Deep cup drawing isn't really difficult, and shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of a decently equipped machine shop. The problem would be doing it in quantity.

That brings us to the other issues...

Primers, and smokeless powder.

Primers are pretty simple chemistry, but dangerous.

Smokeless powder, though?

That's DIFFICULT chemical engineering and heavy duty science. Get a step wrong, and you ruin not only your batch of powder, but all of the chemicals, reagents, and catalysts needed to make the powder.

[Ben]

My guess is that actual components are a LOT harder to locate in quantity than spent cases. Spent cases are going to be pretty easy to come by is my guess.

Well yeah, with them always going full auto, plenty of spent cases. 

Good points on the other stuff. I do now seem to remember seeing reloading equipment in the past. I've never researched primer manufacturing, but assumed it required fairly specialized equipment (versus say, percussion caps for black powder). It might be easier than I thought though.

I wasn't sure if Eugene just found a general machine shop that he thought he could adapt, or did some research and found one with equipment that could more easily be adapted / converted.

[K Frame]

No really specialized equipment for primers. Just need the raw material, a few simple machine tools (punches, mainly), and someone who understands the chemistry of making the primer compound.

After that, it's just making small batches and hoping you don't blow yourself up. Primer compound needs to be handled wet. Once it starts to dry, it gets boomy really quickly.

Oh, and percussion caps for black powder?

They're the exact same thing as modern primers. Just shaped a bit differently.



"I wasn't sure if Eugene just found a general machine shop that he thought he could adapt, or did some research and found one with equipment that could more easily be adapted / converted."

Actually, he didn't find *expletive deleted*it. It was just a room with an assortment of random, unrelated equipment that makes NO sense when put together.

The crucible just hanging there in the middle of the room? OK.... where's the heat source? The furnace that would be needed?

And, where's the items needed to support casting, which the crucible infers? Sand molds, pig trays, etc? Nothing like that there.

There were some things that looked like they could be in a machine shop, though. A heavy duty drill press, possibly a lathe, and all of it position WAY too close to a swinging cauldron of hot metal.

Anyway, my rant.


As for Eugene saying they need to find a lot of lead...

I know exactly where they can find a lot of lead. Dangerous to deal with, thought...

There are a gazillion abandoned cars and trucks sitting around, and each of them has a lead acid battery that can be smelted.

[Ben]

Oh, and percussion caps for black powder?

They're the exact same thing as modern primers. Just shaped a bit differently.

Interesting. When I look at my percussion caps, I see a cup that should be easily swaged (same for primer cups I reckon), but the difference that made me think primers were more difficult (explody stuff aside) was that the primers have that metal "support" over the charge (I'm guessing structural to keep them from collapsing when seated?) which I would think would be more difficult to machine. My knowledge in the area is severely lacking though.

I just did a quick search, and homemade percussion caps seem pretty easy. Example video below. Don't know how it compares to primer manufacturing.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/making-homemade-percussion-caps-black-powder-guns-video/

[HankB]

. . . I know exactly where they can find a lot of lead. Dangerous to deal with, thought... There are a gazillion abandoned cars and trucks sitting around, and each of them has a lead acid battery that can be smelted. 

Modern car batteries have a bunch of other alloying materials (e.g., calcium, arsenic) which make them a poor source of bullet material. Wheelweights are still around, and would be a better source. (Although not ALL wheelweights are lead these days.)
 

[K Frame]

"that made me think primers were more difficult (explody stuff aside) was that the primers have that metal "support" over the charge"

That's not a support, that's the anvil. The firing pin crushes the priming compound against the anvil, setting it off. The primer integral anvil is a hallmark of the Boxer primer system.

If you don't have an anvil in the primer, it needs to be part of the case, which would make it a Berdan primer, the system commonly used in Europe and, because of the nature of the system, makes the cases a lot more difficult to reload.

[K Frame]

"Modern car batteries have a bunch of other alloying materials (e.g., calcium, arsenic) which make them a poor source of bullet material."

It's the zombipocalypse. Make do can do and all that.

If you want pretty much pure lead, then, you get a hacksaw and cut off the terminal posts. Those are (or until recently were) almost pure lead.

[mtnbkr]

As for lead,a better supply would be various fishing supply places and the lead sinkers that have probably been ignored since the apocalypse started.  Also, there would be metal recycling places around.  Not to mention recycled bullets from firefights, though that's a bit more labor intensive.  Battery lead would be the last thing I'd check.

More difficult would be finding bullet moulds.  Even well stocked reloading shops in this region don't have much for casting.  Also, casting for ARs will be a challenge.  One for the appropriate moulds, and two, to get sufficient hardness in the bullets.  I think you'd need water quenched wheelweights at a minimum, with linotype-augmented alloys a preference.

Existing stocks of primers and powders would be fine assuming even reasonable storage (sealed containers, not exposed to the weather, etc).  Unfortunately, reloading supply shops in NoVA (Alexandria, remember) are few.  Clark Bros in Warrenton, Bass Pro near Baltimore, and Green Top and Bass Pro near Richmond are the nearest ones I can think of.

ETA: Zinc makes a passable bullet (castboolits.com tested this some time ago) and might even work well for rifles.  Just don't mix it with your lead supply.  Where does one find zinc?  Modern automotive wheelweights...

Chris

[K Frame]

"As for lead,a better supply would be various fishing supply places and the lead sinkers that have probably been ignored since the apocalypse started."

That's thinking outside of the tackle box.

"Also, casting for ARs will be a challenge."

You don't cast for ARs. You turn the lead into lead wire and use it as cores in jackets you've drawn.

[Angel Eyes]

For Eugene:

[K Frame]

Here's thinking even farther outside of the zombie box...


Screw the lead entirely.

Balle D.

[Ben]

"that made me think primers were more difficult (explody stuff aside) was that the primers have that metal "support" over the charge"

That's not a support, that's the anvil. The firing pin crushes the priming compound against the anvil, setting it off. The primer integral anvil is a hallmark of the Boxer primer system.

If you don't have an anvil in the primer, it needs to be part of the case, which would make it a Berdan primer, the system commonly used in Europe and, because of the nature of the system, makes the cases a lot more difficult to reload.

Would a Berdan (difficulty for reloading aside) be easier to make for the "zombie hobbiest" with makeshift equipment?

[mtnbkr]

You don't cast for ARs. You turn the lead into lead wire and use it as cores in jackets you've drawn.

I suppose, but if casting is a challenge, then drawing jackets and turning lead into wire for the cores will be even more challenging.  That said, there are tools around to turn 22lr cases into jackets, though I've never seen one in real life.

Honestly, if it were me, I'd focus on reloading for handguns and larger bore non-FA/semi rifles and use those rather than the bullet hoses unless bullet hosing is necessary.  That way, reloading for said bullet hoses is a lower priority.  A revolver is a fine tool for slowing down zombies, no need for a 3-rnd burst or full donkey show.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

Balle D.

Chris

[K Frame]

Oh, and if you don't like arsenic in your lead (I'm not sure that the arsenic or cadmium would do much of anything to the lead's basic properties other than make it harder...)

http://www.google.com/patents/US2335758

And the same for cadmium.

https://www.google.com/patents/US2286017?dq=removing+cadmium+from+lead&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJn4Kbq9LLAhXB1x4KHe-9BakQ6AEIHTAA


Wanna bet that Eugene doesn't already know how to do that? :D


Oh, the only problem with the above?

Toxic.

As.

*expletive deleted*it.

Fumes, dross, everything. You want to do it a LONG way from civilization.

Which in zombie America, is pretty much everywhere.

[Angel Eyes]

Chris

Probably referring to this:  http://www.sergeantyorkproject.com/ammunition.pdf

In 1898 the French Army adopted the 8mm “Balle D” cartridge for use in the
Mle 1886 Lebel Rifle. Balle D remained in service for the duration of the war.

[K Frame]

Would a Berdan (difficulty for reloading aside) be easier to make for the "zombie hobbiest" with makeshift equipment?

Slightly easier. You wouldn't have to fit the anvil in the primer.

[mtnbkr]

I'd leave arsenic in.  It does harden the lead, which is a benefit for anything other than lite target loads.  Not sure what benefit, if any, cadmium has. 

Chris

[K Frame]

Chris

And you call yourself a gun guy?

TURN IN YOUR MAN BADGE!


I'm not going to answer for a bit. I want to see if anyone gets what I'm getting at with that reference...

[mtnbkr]

Probably referring to this:  http://www.sergeantyorkproject.com/ammunition.pdf

Thanks, I was unaware.  Will have to circle back later and read the article more closely.
Chris