Author Topic: CO. Movie House Attack  (Read 34062 times)

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2012, 01:57:20 PM »
Whoa, looks like Brian Ross and Snuffleupagus were a little off about the *deleted*bag.
http://www.examiner.com/article/colorado-shooting-suspect-reported-to-be-former-occupy-member

Is it wrong that this information makes me feel a bit gleeful?
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2012, 02:39:56 PM »
So basically, you risk becoming a murderer just like the psycho - that's what it would amount to under the circumstances.

Uh huh.  Negligence = murder now? 


Risk and reward.  The risk of hitting an innocent might be higher, but the reward of stopping the shooting spree might outweigh that.
Not saying I could, or would take that shot.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

never_retreat

  • Head Muckety Muck
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,158
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2012, 03:14:12 PM »
And I guess he was carrying all 6000 rounds in some super duper load bearing ammo vest.   =D
Any work if he had a tactical wheel barrow?  ;/
I needed a mod to change my signature because the concept of "family friendly" eludes me.
Just noticed that a mod changed my signature. How long ago was that?
A few months-mods

never_retreat

  • Head Muckety Muck
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,158
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2012, 03:16:14 PM »
De Selby, you neglected to include this part of never_retreat's statement.

If you have a great shot or a not-so-great shot, with a good probability of hitting the suspect and low probability of hitting an innocent, why not take it? IIRC, most state laws provide some leeway regarding innocents being hit in a defensive shooting.

I'm not suggesting shooting into the crowd.
Just remember if the cops had shown up while he was still shooting they probable would have sprayed the place and hit everyone but the perp.
I needed a mod to change my signature because the concept of "family friendly" eludes me.
Just noticed that a mod changed my signature. How long ago was that?
A few months-mods

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2012, 05:48:46 PM »
Usually when I'm in a theater I try to get a seat someplace high and in the middle, maybe I should rethink that.
Most people are probably trying to duck, meaning even if you are high and in the middle you more than likely have a clear shot. I doubt anyone is up and running. Where are they going to go? Stairs only take you one way and you are really exposed if you try to go down them.
Any word on how many rounds fired compared to people hit/killed?
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Nick1911

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,492
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2012, 06:16:36 PM »
Any word on the gas used?

There's a lot of nasty compounds out there - I can't even imagine the suffering that someone dosing a theater with (for example) MPTP would have.  =(  Probably worse then death.

MrsSmith

  • I do declare, someone needs an ass whoopin'
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,734
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2012, 07:01:59 PM »
The Chief of Police said in the press conference yesterday that it was a smoke grenade. Was that not the case?
America is at that awkward stage; It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. ~ Claire Wolfe

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,158
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #82 on: July 21, 2012, 07:11:24 PM »
I'm going to be curious to see the list of chemicals found at the house. I'm fearful black powder will show up. So far the things that scare me regarding politicization of the event and agendas include:

- Magazine restrictions based on the 100 round drum, which, did he only load it part way if he reloaded the rifle, or what?
- Internet ammo restrictions, either outright or based on quantity due to the ammo he purchased via the web.
- If black powder is found in the apartment, no more BP for muzzle loading, at least via mail order and without ID.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2012, 07:44:51 PM »
I'm going to throw the old felony murder rule out to see what the splatter sticks to.  If a shot at the nutjob misses him and hits someone else there is a good chance the prosecutor will try very hard to make the nutjob legally responsible for any injury caused.  That does not resolve the moral or ethical issues, but sure does do a lot to lessen the chances of winding up sharing a cell with the nutjob.

Do y'all remember the stunt one of the TV networks pulled a little while ago, giving a gun  (OK, so it was an airsoft fer crying out loud) to someone who had little idea of which end the bullets came out of, dressed them up in a baggy sweatshirt at least 7 sizes too big, and stuffed the airsoft into their pants with some cheap, floppy nylon IWB holster, and then had them try to take out an active shooter in a small classroom setting?  Even then the folks who were not playing active shooter or "Our Hero" tended to drop to the floor as opposed to standing tall and sprinting for the exits.  From what I have read and heard, that's what most of the folks in the theater did until the shots stopped.  Part of it may be (my reading between the lines) because the aisles were jammed even though there were not a great number of folks trying to use them, and folks were getting hit there moreso than were those hiding behind the seats.

Moving on - the situation raises a large moral dilema for me.  Why should I be responsible for saving the backside of anyone who is not willing to assume any responsibility on their own for trying to protect themself?  Add to that the usual list of attendees at any given movie theater, and a midnight screening especially, and I become hard pressed to see why I should want to save their backsides at the risk of my own.

Someone riddle me that, please.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #84 on: July 21, 2012, 08:02:36 PM »
Quote
Moving on - the situation raises a large moral dilema for me.  Why should I be responsible for saving the backside of anyone who is not willing to assume any responsibility on their own for trying to protect themself?  Add to that the usual list of attendees at any given movie theater, and a midnight screening especially, and I become hard pressed to see why I should want to save their backsides at the risk of my own.

Someone riddle me that, please.

Good question, and one that I always answer (to myself) that I wouldn't do it. That said, I might try, if for no other reason than not feeling horrible for not trying to save lives.

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #85 on: July 21, 2012, 08:06:11 PM »
Do y'all remember the stunt one of the TV networks pulled a little while ago, giving a gun  (OK, so it was an airsoft fer crying out loud) to someone who had little idea of which end the bullets came out of, dressed them up in a baggy sweatshirt at least 7 sizes too big, and stuffed the airsoft into their pants with some cheap, floppy nylon IWB holster, and then had them try to take out an active shooter in a small classroom setting?  Even then the folks who were not playing active shooter or "Our Hero" tended to drop to the floor as opposed to standing tall and sprinting for the exits.  From what I have read and heard, that's what most of the folks in the theater did until the shots stopped.  Part of it may be (my reading between the lines) because the aisles were jammed even though there were not a great number of folks trying to use them, and folks were getting hit there moreso than were those hiding behind the seats.

If I'm thinking of the same one I saw I believe it was a simunition pistol. The biggest thing that REALLY pissed me off was they were like, "Aha! We had a second shooter hiding as one of the students meaning you are going to get shot. Proof that even if you actually took out the shooter you would still of got shot showing that concealed carry is bad."  [barf]
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 08:09:41 PM by freakazoid »
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #86 on: July 21, 2012, 09:01:49 PM »
Any word on the gas used?

There's a lot of nasty compounds out there - I can't even imagine the suffering that someone dosing a theater with (for example) MPTP would have.  =(  Probably worse then death.

From all reports that I've seen and heard. It was simply a "regular" smoke grenade.  Whether commercial or military, I don't know.   If military then it's potassium chlorate.  Not toxic or poisonous, but in a confined space enough to make you start hacking pretty good.  

Three other points.  
1) He was wearing a Pro-mask.  Ever try shooting (especially a rifle) with a Pro-mask on?  Aiming is a bitch, however, spray and pray in a crowded theater would produce a bunch of causalities.

2) Other reports stated that he opened fire first with the shotgun.  Figure 5-9 rounds of buck shot and you got a lot of hurt people really fast.

3) RE: 100 round drum.  Another report I heard stated that it was only ~half empty when they recovered the AR because it had jammed.  Not sure if they meant the drum mag or the gun.
 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 10:28:38 PM by scout26 »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2012, 09:02:19 PM »
Good question, and one that I always answer (to myself) that I wouldn't do it. That said, I might try, if for no other reason than not feeling horrible for not trying to save lives.

I don't see it so much as "saving their lives" as saving my life.
In these things, EVERYONE in the theater is a victim, including me (if I were there) which means every second I let him keep shooting, there is a larger chance me or mine is going to be hit. I'd probably wait and see if he's targeting specific people or not, but if he's going at random, then the attack is (and should be) considered a personal attack on everyone present.
I'm not saying be a hero, I'm saying save your ass, which, conicidently may save others, but that's not the point.

If your in a spot where you can't be hit, and are safe, then, yes, you have a personal delima about saving other people, but without that, whatever tatics you go with under those circumstances, are not nessasarly about being a hero.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

never_retreat

  • Head Muckety Muck
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,158
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #88 on: July 21, 2012, 09:32:29 PM »
3) RE: 100 round drum.  Another report I heard stated that it was only ~half empty when they recovered the AR because it had jammed.  Not sure if they meant the drum mag or the gun.
 
Well there you go, he should have used an AK we all know how unreliable those ar-15's are.
Actually I'm surprised they did not call it an AK, that seems to be the common response from the media when they don't even know what was used.
I needed a mod to change my signature because the concept of "family friendly" eludes me.
Just noticed that a mod changed my signature. How long ago was that?
A few months-mods

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2012, 09:52:27 PM »
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2012, 11:11:43 PM »
Quote
3) RE: 100 round drum.  Another report I heard stated that it was only ~half empty when they recovered the AR because it had jammed.  Not sure if they meant the drum mag or the gun.

Allow me to clear up your confusion. Here's a snippet from the AP story about the shooting that was in today's paper:

Quote
Gates said the gunman wore a gas mask and a ballistic helmet and vest, as well as leg, groin and throat protectors. He said he bought four guns from local gun shops in the last 60 days and 6,000 rounds of ammunition, including a drum magazine that could fire 50 to 60 rounds a minute.

It wasn't the AR that jammed. He was shooting the magazine itself which, by the way, has a really slow rate of fire.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #91 on: July 22, 2012, 12:45:14 PM »
Just remember if the cops had shown up while he was still shooting they probable would have sprayed the place and hit everyone but the perp.

any real life examples? Columbine is out. That russian theatre is too
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #92 on: July 22, 2012, 01:01:08 PM »
Oh I heard it called an AK on FNC this morning in the truck.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,158
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #93 on: July 22, 2012, 01:06:27 PM »
A Fed was quoted as saying one of the booby traps was a hypergolic mixture. The main definition I find tends toward rocket fuel and chemicals that wacko probably couldn't get. I'm wondering if because it relates to oxidizers, the Fed meant Thermite?
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #94 on: July 22, 2012, 01:53:13 PM »
.....It wasn't the AR that jammed. He was shooting the magazine itself which, by the way, has a really slow rate of fire.

Color me confused. ???  I do own an AR but I have no 100 round mags, just 30s & 20s.  Why would a 100 round magazine have a "slow rate of fire?" I mean, slower than a 30?  If it fired at the same rate which IMO would be governed by the cyclic rate of the BCG and how fast the trigger was being pulled it would be the same  rate of fire. 
I have a WASR-10 and one 75 rnd drum mag which winds up....it offers no difference at all in  rate of fire, just capacity.
Is there something about the 100 rnd. AR magazine of which I am ignorant?   
No fear, guys, ignorance I can handle --  I don't pretend to know everything about guns.  Just asking for a clarification, that's all.  :angel:
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

ArfinGreebly

  • Level Three Geek
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,236
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #95 on: July 22, 2012, 01:59:16 PM »
Color me confused. ???  I do own an AR but I have no 100 round mags, just 30s & 20s.  Why would a 100 round magazine have a "slow rate of fire?" I mean, slower than a 30?  If it fired at the same rate which IMO would be governed by the cyclic rate of the BCG and how fast the trigger was being pulled it would be the same  rate of fire. 
I have a WASR-10 and one 75 rnd drum mag which winds up....it offers no difference at all in  rate of fire, just capacity.
Is there something about the 100 rnd. AR magazine of which I am ignorant?   
No fear, guys, ignorance I can handle --  I don't pretend to know everything about guns.  Just asking for a clarification, that's all.  :angel:

Read the news quote to which he refers.

"Shooting the magazine itself" = irony.
"Slow rate of fire" = irony.

Irony can be tough when the subject matter is deadly serious.

"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,449
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #96 on: July 22, 2012, 02:08:12 PM »
Oh I heard it called an AK on FNC this morning in the truck.

And everyone else is calling it an assault rifle.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #97 on: July 22, 2012, 02:53:04 PM »
And everyone else is calling it an assault rifle.

In defense of the reporters, they are likely quoting the police chief who made that erroneous statement in a press conference.

(For those unaware, an assault rifle is a fully automatic rifle. It is HIGHLY unlikely the killer had a fully automatic rifle given how much regulations are involved in owning one. Also, given that the police have referred to it as an AR-15, that is specifically a semi-automatic rifle, not a fully automatic one, and therefore not an assault rifle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle )
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

SteveS

  • The Voice of Reason
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,224
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #98 on: July 22, 2012, 03:02:31 PM »
Oh I heard it called an AK on FNC this morning in the truck.

Last night, FNC said it was a Smith & Wesson AR that he bought from a Gander Mountain.
Profanity is the linguistic crutch of the inarticulate mother****er.

MrsSmith

  • I do declare, someone needs an ass whoopin'
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,734
Re: CO. Movie House Attack
« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2012, 04:42:14 PM »
In defense of the reporters, they are likely quoting the police chief who made that erroneous statement in a press conference.

(For those unaware, an assault rifle is a fully automatic rifle. It is HIGHLY unlikely the killer had a fully automatic rifle given how much regulations are involved in owning one. Also, given that the police have referred to it as an AR-15, that is specifically a semi-automatic rifle, not a fully automatic one, and therefore not an assault rifle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle )

I heard that too and almost choked on my Dr. Pepper. A police chief calling an AR an assault rifle? Really?
I suppose it could have been full auto, which would, in all likelihood, mean it was an illegally purchased weapon. Which would also show that gun bans don't mean a damn thing to criminals. I hate turning this into a political thing, but it's also hard to just let the anti's walk all over rational thought.
America is at that awkward stage; It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. ~ Claire Wolfe