Author Topic: Change.gov  (Read 30300 times)

mtnbkr

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2008, 08:52:31 PM »
i agree  and i am sure you do

so if the schools there made community service part of their program would you be opposed?in my case/experience i would think of it as upgrading the behavior of the kids my heathen were rubbing elbows with. cause i can assure you that many other parents aren't doing anything to disabuse lil jane and johnny of the idea that they are the center of the universe. then again i liked prayer in school too

If they facilitated volunteering and it wasn't a requirement, I'd support it.  If they wanted to make it a requirement for graduation, I would oppose it. 

School budgets are stretched thin as it is.  I'd rather all school resources go towards education. 

Chris

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #76 on: November 10, 2008, 08:57:25 PM »
that was one of the neat things.  high school kids tutor middle school kids   middle school kids tutor grade school kids. kids learn about helping schools get extra support. hard as it is to imagine they actually had something that worked.  then they got threatened with lawsuits. sidwell friends school has always had a community service requirement. as far as i know still does. the benifits can be myraid. the downside mostly imaginary
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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anygunanywhere

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #77 on: November 10, 2008, 09:40:23 PM »
i've never seen the feds force anyone. but i've seen some schools require it and the effect/result i saw was good. granted this was in real life and that does tend to foul up the outrage.  montgomery county md tried it  same good result till some of the elitist parents sued. same folks who sued the power company after issabel. their power was out cause the trees they sued to save fell on the power lines



What if the feds make the schools and universities run the mandatory service and require it for graduation?

Of course the vast number of dropouts will have to be dealt with in some other way.

So will the home schoolers.

I'll work on this a bit.

Anygunanywhere


cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #78 on: November 10, 2008, 09:43:09 PM »
its been a requirement for graduation at sidwell friends for decades. the horror. and it was for its short lived life in montgomery county as well.  i might be mistaken but i think they offered an opt out similar to the no vaccinations if your religion forbids it
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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86thecat

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #79 on: November 11, 2008, 01:15:05 AM »
Nothing "fevered" about it.  I'll sue, too, if Obama et alia try to force some sort of lame-assed community service on my family. 

If I got a DUI or didn't pay child support and got caught, sure, then I owe the community some trash pickup time, or worse.

My government, however, will not mandate I do it, and I guarantee that such a grandiose scheme won't come to fruition if those of us holding our freedoms dear have any say in the matter.

All Obama has to do is call it something cute like "Americorps", and get starry-eyed believers to do it of their own volition.  No need to mandate community service, short of some Socialist goal of his...
This looks like an overview of the program. Nothing to worry about. I'm sure there will be a few changes but the idea is similar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #80 on: November 11, 2008, 09:07:58 AM »
the true horror of the community service programs i've seen , in real life as opposed to imagination so your results may vary, was that they intended to disabuse kids of the idea of the free lunch. they wanted to teach kids that as part of society they had an obligation to give back as opposed to being parasites. believe it or not some kids need a lotta help with that.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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French G.

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #81 on: November 11, 2008, 11:31:58 AM »
Okay, I'm pretty sure we all think kids doing work in the community is a great idea. How about we let the local Boy Scout master or Ms. Jones in Civics head that up rather than the federal government making something compulsory.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #82 on: November 11, 2008, 12:31:00 PM »
no question the feds will louse it up. i was stunned that montgomery county did so well  then the parents rose up and proved that if you have something good working you need to defend it from the morons
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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French G.

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #83 on: November 11, 2008, 12:34:05 PM »
I surprised Montgomery county can do anything well actually.  :laugh:
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

dogmush

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2008, 12:37:47 PM »
Sidwell Friends is a private school, they can do wat they want.

Instilling civic values and raising the kids is the parents job.  The school's job is to educate.  In addition to the chill I get at the federal gov trying to instill it's own values in kids, I don't think schools in ths country are educating well enough to spare time to raise the kids.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #85 on: November 11, 2008, 12:40:39 PM »
I surprised Montgomery county can do anything well actually.  :laugh:

once upon a time they did some things real well.  they had a great system in place to help troubled kids.   real help and they didn't wait till it was too late. they also had a decent drug rehab program   but the money dried up
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #86 on: November 11, 2008, 12:43:47 PM »
Sidwell Friends is a private school, they can do wat they want.

Instilling civic values and raising the kids is the parents job.  The school's job is to educate.  In addition to the chill I get at the federal gov trying to instill it's own values in kids, I don't think schools in ths country are educating well enough to spare time to raise the kids.

civic values was part of my education both at home and at school. for all too many kids they aren't getting civic values at home.  think of community service requirements as the morality version of the school breakfast program. i think it could best be managed at the local level  for example the kids at the local elementary pick up trash along the road, they don't toss trash much after that
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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RevDisk

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #87 on: November 11, 2008, 01:22:14 PM »
can someone point to a negative experience?  in real life? i hate to impose that kinda limitation

When I was in HS, I did tons of community service at the local library.   All of the librarians were little old ladies, who were greatly pleased to have someone young to move several metric tons of boxes filled with books (written on lead paper, I swear).  I also sorted books for the annual book sale, and the evil little kid I was, I skimmed the best books off the top and into my backpack before ANYONE had a chance to purchase them!    Hey, I was like 14, it seemed like evil genius work at the time...

I don't think I'd have the love of books I have today if I ordered to do forced labor by the federal government at no pay or benefit.  Mandating kids by law to do forced labor just doesn't have a nice ring to it.  If it's a school/church/parent thing, it's optional (to the parents at least) and a good thing.   When something is the law, it must have an associated punishment for noncompliance or else it is merely advice.  You think fining or tossing parents in jail when some govt desk jockey thinks that little Johnny didn't put in enough hours of unpaid child labor will go over well? 

As for negative examples, the Всесою́зная пионе́рская организа́ция и́мени В. И. Ле́нина or the Всесоюзный Ленинский Коммунистический Союз Молодёжи (ВЛКСМ). 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Tallpine

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #88 on: November 11, 2008, 01:54:56 PM »
This sort of parallels our "voluntary" income tax payment system, right ?

 =D
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

ArfinGreebly

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To Err Is Human . . .
« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2008, 01:59:39 PM »
. . . but to really mess things up, you need government.

CassDaddy, there are several beneficial ideas and initiatives I would not want to see in the hands of government.

I have some ideas for education and kids that I would love to be able to implement -- in a private school -- but which I would never entrust to anything as capricious and corrupt as government.

Compulsory anything is tantamount to tyranny.

Discipline used to be something parents could administer and parents had no problem with schools implementing an extension of that idea.

Over the last forty years, with the infiltration of psychiatry and psychology into the system, working as a carrier wave for the values of socialism, the natural authority of parents within their own families has been nearly completely undermined, and the government and its surrogates have "become the parents," to the point where kids are instructed that any discipline at home which they feel is oppressive can be reported as "child abuse."  (I got to experience that with my youngest daughter.  "You can't ground me any more, or I can report you for child abuse."  You just have to experience that some time, just to appreciate the sensation.)

"Treatment" is the new punishment.  Failure to comply with "norms" indicates some kind of "syndrome" or "disorder" even unto "mental illness."

Look for this trend to accelerate.  "Teen Screen" is a program where teens in school are isolated, questioned (with asinine things like, "are you ever nervous in front of your peers") and then assigned a regimen of the psychotropic drug du jour.

Our current vector -- if it goes unchecked -- leads to a fascist implementation of socialism.

When the majority of the nation is willing to vote for security-by-government rather than liberty and responsibility, that curve leads first to "tyranny of the majority" followed by a blatant centralized tyranny (imposed to "bring order" from the chaos that ensues from direct democracy).

I don't know if a rollback is possible.  It may require decades of a different kind of infiltration of the system.

However.

When disagreeing with the dictates of the system is assessed as "mental illness" and commitment does not require due process (or the "due process" relies on "medical expertise"), now you have a system that defends itself against correction.

Soviet Russia used this model.

We're in the awkward position today of having a system that -- until now -- has been open to change (and infiltration), but which is on the brink of becoming opaque and self-defending.

SkyNet as government.  (Awful metaphor, sorry.)

The more compulsory stuff we permit from government, the more we establish the precedent for compulsory stuff from government.  Past a certain threshold, we no longer "permit" it.

Therefore, at every opportunity, discourage compulsory government programs, deny them your approval for anything of the kind.

When I'm trying to to fix something in my life, I MAY make a mess, with the government undertaking that same effort, they WILL make a mess.

I'll take my chances with my own bumbling.

I want to own my own life, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

I want my kids to own their own lives.

That's the source of freedom & liberty.

And I'm a big fan of that.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 02:05:10 PM by ArfinGreebly »
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ctdonath

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2008, 02:33:49 PM »
It's that whole, you know, freedom thing. My daughter will experience public service on our terms - not terms unilaterally declared by a raging Marxist we don't know.

Example?
I repaired furniture for the poor. Once. Before I was done fixing that couch I realized why I was fixing that couch, when one of the occupants asked me to repair a window screen they had just destroyed for the heck of it.

Oh, I did "public service" after that - just on my terms.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2008, 02:49:18 PM »
It's that whole, you know, freedom thing. My daughter will experience public service on our terms - not terms unilaterally declared by a raging Marxist we don't know.

Example?
I repaired furniture for the poor. Once. Before I was done fixing that couch I realized why I was fixing that couch, when one of the occupants asked me to repair a window screen they had just destroyed for the heck of it.

Oh, I did "public service" after that - just on my terms.

but again in the real world where i saw it implemented you and daughter could do just that pick her type/place of service   heck i knew kids who got credit for reading the bible  or church work at their own church. another kid who volunteered to work at the animal shelter. turns out he liked it  went from flunking to vet school.  i hear all the fear of enslavement but i just can't get past actually watching how the program could and did work. its too big a jump for me from reality to the "it could happen that way" fantasy.  one of the arguments used against it in md was "a kid could be driving to or from and get killed"
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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ctdonath

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #92 on: November 11, 2008, 05:22:13 PM »
Quote
you and daughter could do just that pick her type/place of service

...from THEIR list of approved options. Ya see, that's the problem: the notion that the gov't is omniscient in knowing all options, omnipotent in providing the only path to those options, omnipresent in approving all activities for those options.

Ya see, the Boy Scouts have been disallowed as an "option" in some places because of their social stances. As an Eagle Scout, I have a problem with that. Also, I belong to a church denomination which, while not outrageous, traditionally has a view of government which government may not like; would we be on an approved list of charity conduits? not likely, be it for philosophy or for scale (rather small).

Oh, sure, nobody would be limited in their ultimate choices for charity work, it's just that they'd have to do something approved to get credit for it, or to get resources ... both of which would garner social stigma or heightened difficulties if not on THEIR list.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #93 on: November 11, 2008, 05:36:55 PM »
from THEIR list of approved options.


actually as i mentioned earlier the process i saw, as opposed to imagine, allowed the kids to pick original forms of service.i think the fact that some of it was religious even biblical was what bothered some of the parents.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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SsevenN

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2008, 03:01:46 PM »
C&S's D.

The model you are refering to is a private school, the students are there because those parents agreed with the moral and social compass of the proprietors. Those parents were also free to remove their children from the school at any time. This school is also located in a specific demographic (I would assume), and therefore can custom-tailor the education to the desire of the parents.

We are talking about a nation-sweeping, taxed funded, government run program that will decide the direction this 'community service' will take. And if you the parent don't like it? Tough, it's a manditory govt program.

So whats the big problem there?

In the short term, nothing. You are forced (your child) to do the service, and life goes on.

But after generations have been through the same 'community service' programs, that instill a feeling of 'requirement' to the government in your child, you end up with a 'trained' populace lacking in idividual motivation and free will.

How does this happen?

It's the nature of the 'community service'. While it seems harmless, the over-all tone will be custom tailored to suit the needs of a opressive socialist society, that needs indentured serfs. "Wow thanks governement for allowing me to be educated with my parents taxes. Now let me show you how thankful I am by doing free labor for you, while you drain half my paycheck that you also write!"

Once you have a generation of people convinced they are responsible for financially maintaining the needs of others, you loose the ideals of self reliance, independence and freedome and the ability to resist the people in control.

Is it the end of the world? Of course not, but it's a big step towards the end of true freedom in America.


cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #95 on: November 12, 2008, 03:07:00 PM »
C&S's D.

The model you are refering to is a private school, the students are there because those parents agreed with the moral and social compass of the proprietors. These parents were also free to remove their children from the school at any time. This school is also located in a specific demographic (I would assume), and therefore can custom-tailor the education to the desire of the parents.

We are talking about a nation-sweeping, taxed funded, government run program that will decide the direction this 'community service' will take. And if you the parent don't like it? Tough, it's a manditory govt program.

So whats the big problem there?

In the short term, nothing. You are forced (your child) to do the service, and life goes on.

But after generations have been through the same 'community service' programs, that instill a feeling of 'requirement' to the government in your child, you end up with a 'trained' populace lacking in idividual motivation and free will.

How does this happen?

It's the nature of the 'community service'. While it seems harmless, the over-all tone will be custom tailored to suit the needs of a opressive socialist society, that needs indentured serfs. "Wow thanks governement for allowing me to be educated with my parents taxes. Now let me show you how thankful I am by doing free labor for you, while you drain half my paycheck that you also write!"

Once you have a generation of people convinced they are responsible for financially maintaining the needs of others, you loose the ideals of self reliance, independence and freedome and the ability to resist the people in control.

Is it the end of the world? Of course not, but it's a big step towards the end of true freedome in America.

actually i was talking about public schools in montgomery county md.  where the parents took legal action "for the children"  and perversely i didn't hear the kids whine .   your imagination may vary


"But after generations have been through the same 'community service' programs, that instill a feeling of 'requirement' to the government in your child, you end up with a 'trained' populace lacking in idividual motivation and free will."

you mean the way the draft reduced the population to drones? i don't recall that
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #96 on: November 12, 2008, 04:28:47 PM »
Fortunately the draft was responded to, by the people, by abolishing it.

Why set up a community service "draft" that may need a similar fix?  And in a political environment even less conducive to individualism?
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #97 on: November 12, 2008, 04:52:34 PM »
do you remember it turning folks into drones?  was that before my time?  i was around for the end of conscription.

heres a subversive group behind community service  the infamous national honors society
http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/northwoodhs/students/nationalhonorsociety.html


another
http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/kennedyhs/lti_pillars.htm


http://www.marylandpublicschools.org/MSDE/programs/servicelearning/docs/leas/montgomery

it appears i need to get out more  community service survived the parents action "for the children" and is still a reality. churning out drones to serve the overlords   and so cleverly disguised that those who are around it in real life are all fooled . only those empowered by their imagination can see the insidious threat


It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2008, 05:06:15 PM »
more on the insidious nature of this menace
http://aer.sagepub.com/cgi/content/full/44/1/197

long piece
apparently kids doing community service are driven to actually vote in elections.  we need to stop that before it gets outa hand. especially since it seems that they actually vote the issues as opposed to "my union said".
the graphs save time for the reading disinclined
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Change.gov
« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2008, 05:08:50 PM »
You're deliberately playing dense.

Quote from: from the NHS cite
the organization also encourages students to become active in school activies and community service

That's voluntary.

No one has a problem with voluntary, or even "mandatory" at a voluntarily-attended private school.

What we have a problem with is government mandated service, which by definition would have legal penalities for non-compliance, the acceptability of which is to be determined by the government.

The draft (and selective service) is Constitutionally justified under the Militia power of the Congress.  there is no similar provision allowing the Congress to compel the citizenry to serve in any other way.

Even in the case of the draft, once it was seen as a negative by society, society had it removed.

Why do something unConstitutional, with great potential for misuse, when by your own examples it can be more effectively done at a local level, without compulsion?
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."