Israel Under Attack

[dogmush]

How are we defining "innocent" though?  Not being a smart ass, it's a real question that we (the US) struggled with for the whole GWOT and a good portion of Vietnam.

Anyone not a Direct Combatant?  What about the non-combatants that are providing material aid?  Hiding and storing weapons?  Providing intel on troop movements and positions?  Just offering places for combatants to sleep and rest for the night?  What about folks who know (for a Hamas example) where there are tunnel or bunker entrances and hide that information?  Do we just assume women and children are innocents in the war?  Why? 

And how can you possibly tell from the bodies if they were innocents caught in the crossfire, or helping Hamas?  (or the IDF for that matter, I'd be shocked if there weren't civilian IDF and Mossad assets in Gaza)

Further:  As a Gazan (or Ukrainian, or Iraqi) civilian you are under no obligation to help a military invading your home, but if you don't, or you help your military forces, are you still "innocent" or have you picked a side?

This is one of the reasons that war, ESPECIALLY urban warfare, is difficult. *expletive deleted*it gets real blurry, real fast.  There are definitely corpses in Gaza right now that wanted no part of this conflict and were truly innocent, but how many, and which ones? Gods only know. (literally)

[cordex]

I don't know ... if a young, Gazan girl wearing tactical gear got out of a vehicle that had been in an active firefight with IDF and she got killed would it still be a war crime?   

[Ben]

How are we defining "innocent" though?  Not being a smart ass, it's a real question that we (the US) struggled with for the whole GWOT and a good portion of Vietnam.

Let's not forget Dresden and Hiroshima (I would include London, but I figure we're talking about the "good guys" doing the killing here), where there definitely WERE innocent civilians. I mean, unless you count people trying to live their lives while a war is going on as not innocent. The Allies decided that those two examples were a necessary evil to end the wars on those fronts before millions more died.

[WLJ]

Oh My Marx! A Jew!

@amuse
@amuse
Duke invited a Jewish speaker to graduation and Pro-H@mas graduates walked out. The speaker? Jerry Seinfeld.

https://twitter.com/amuse/status/1789680307127366083

[WLJ]

Another walkout someone did a voice over for 

https://twitter.com/amuse/status/1789771839146733946

[dogmush]

Let's not forget Dresden and Hiroshima (I would include London, but I figure we're talking about the "good guys" doing the killing here), where there definitely WERE innocent civilians. I mean, unless you count people trying to live their lives while a war is going on as not innocent. The Allies decided that those two examples were a necessary evil to end the wars on those fronts before millions more died.

And as a further example of the grey, there's documented evidence that Japanese civilians were training to use whatever they could (sticks and *expletive deleted*it) and building fortifications for the expected invasion.  So were they non-combatants, or not-yet-combatants? 

Not to mention the civilians in the factories of Nagasaki that were actively building and shipping war materiel.

[WLJ]

And as a further example of the grey, there's documented evidence that Japanese civilians were training to use whatever they could (sticks and *expletive deleted*it) and building fortifications for the expected invasion.

See the invasion of Saipan for a preview of what awaited Allied troops as far as Japanese civilians was concerned.

Edit: Video should start at the appropriate time

https://youtu.be/UK7sI_78ZN8?t=1873

[MechAg94]

I would also add that there were innocent Israeli civilians who didn't want anything to do with war and were attacked and taken hostage by Hamas terrorists.  This stuff sucks for everyone.  Making any effort at all to avoid excessive civilian casualties is far better than most of human history.  Civilians will get hurt no matter what.  Groups like Hamas will make sure of that. 

[WLJ]

It is said that war is hell.
It is worse for only the guilty suffer in hell.

[RocketMan]

Another walkout someone did a voice over for 

https://twitter.com/amuse/status/1789771839146733946

Sounded like a Trump impersonator.

[K Frame]

I would also add that there were innocent Israeli civilians who didn't want anything to do with war and were attacked and taken hostage by Hamas terrorists.  This stuff sucks for everyone.  Making any effort at all to avoid excessive civilian casualties is far better than most of human history.  Civilians will get hurt no matter what.  Groups like Hamas will make sure of that. 

No no no! Completely untrue!

ALL Israelis are guilty of many and a multitude of crimes!

While Palestinians are completely, purely guiltless and innocent, thus martyrs for Allah's love!

Why don't you people understand that?

[WLJ]

Not the Babylon Bee

And we're suppose to take them seriously 

LOL: Princeton Protesters MOCKED After Announcing 'Rotary Hunger Strikes'
https://twitchy.com/fuzzychimp/2024/05/13/princeton-hunger-strikers-give-up-rotary-hunger-strikes-n2396158

And here's the Babylon Bee

College Students Announce Indefinite Hunger Strike For Palestine Between 10 AM And Noon And Also Between 1 PM and 5 PM Every Day Except For Some Light Snacking
https://babylonbee.com/news/college-students-announce-indefinite-hunger-strike-for-palestine-between-10-am-and-noon-and-also-between-1-pm-and-5-pm-every-day-except-for-some-light-snacking

 

[WLJ]

More commencement fun

Columbia University student in handcuffs rips up diploma on commencement stage in act of protest
https://www.foxnews.com/media/columbia-university-student-handcuffs-rips-diploma-commencement-stage-protest

[MechAg94]

The graduation I just went to, the students got a tube with a sheet in it to order a copy of their diploma.  I heard they lined up that order before the graduation began. 

Anyway, I bet that was just a copy torn up.

[De Selby]

Reckon he’d be in a position to assess whether this is ethnic cleansing by Israel?

https://www.newsmax.com/amp/newsfront/harrison-mann-defense-intelligence-agency-resign/2024/05/13/id/1164542/

According to his LinkedIn profile, Mann had been an executive officer and analyst with the DIA's Middle East/Africa Regional Center since August 2021 and has been with the Army since May 2011.

…

"However, at some point it becomes difficult to defend the outcomes of this particular policy. At some point — whatever the justification — you're either advancing a policy that enables the mass starvation of children or you're not."

"I know that I did, in my small way, wittingly advance that policy…And I want to clarify that as the descendant of European Jews, I was raised in a particularly unforgiving moral environment when it came to the topic of bearing responsibility for ethnic cleansing."

[De Selby]

Let's not forget Dresden and Hiroshima (I would include London, but I figure we're talking about the "good guys" doing the killing here), where there definitely WERE innocent civilians. I mean, unless you count people trying to live their lives while a war is going on as not innocent. The Allies decided that those two examples were a necessary evil to end the wars on those fronts before millions more died.

There’s a major difference that you should be factoring in when comparing these situations.

WWII was a war against the German and Japanese war machines, which had conquered huge swaths of territory and were engaging in genocide against local populations either to steal their land or wealth. The bombings were part of a fight against advanced technology and huge material resources deployed by those genocidal regimes.

The war in Gaza is a war against impoverished natives to exterminate them and steal their land, not a war between great powers. This analogy would only make sense if a power comparable to Israel started carpet bombing that country - they likely would make the argument that Israeli civilians are legitimate targets in the same way the Germans and Japanese were.

[dogmush]

For some values of "Natives"

[WLJ]

The war in Gaza is a war against HAMAS and impoverished natives to exterminate them and steal their land,

Why are some so unwilling to see that?
We had to go in and pull out the Nazis by the root and unfortunately a lot of civilians suffered in the process, no difference here other than how much of the media is covering it.

[griz]

The war in Gaza is a war against impoverished natives to exterminate them and steal their land,

If that's your actual opinion and not just exaggerated rhetoric, we have no common ground for a conversation.