Author Topic: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?  (Read 30148 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2008, 12:12:16 PM »
Even if I ignore your point altogether (and let me remind you that in modern societies we do not allow the mentally incapacitated, or children to have the same rights as adult human. In fact, a given teenager may be far more mature than his 40-year-old uncle, but the uncle enjoys the full rights of a citizen and the teenager does not), one would argue that if a being were to have the mental qualities of a human being, it would be highly bizarre, not to mention immoral, not to grant it the same rights.

Huh?  Again, you are simply repeating your assertion that rights come from sapience, as if that were a given.  It's not.  As you pointed out, teenagers aren't allowed to exercise the rights of an adult, even if they are "sapient."  Anyway, I thought minors' rights were held in trust, rather than being simply limited.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2008, 12:13:57 PM »
What I mean is, rights do not clearly come from humanity, because we do limit the rights of some humans based on their mental capacity, and we also arbitrarily assume that the mental capacity of everybody below 18 is reduced.
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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2008, 12:25:02 PM »
It is a BAD, BAD, BAD idea to even think about giving robots "rights".

That's scary that the nutcase on the show was going on about fighting for robots to have rights. Wait till the leftists get ahold of this cause- we'll have robots on welfare...

Animatrix had an interesting take on it.  Machines asked for recognition of their rights peacefully, humans crushed them in short order, machines retreated to build their own city away from other humans, machines prosper too much, another war begins, humans lose.  In order to coexist, machines keep humans in tubes so they cannot be a threat.  But they also intentionally build their power infrastructure as being dependent on keeping humanity alive.

Personally, I think the first AI will evolve out of malware/worms/viruses/etc.  And I don't think humans would take too kindly to sharing Earth with another sentient species, biological or otherwise.


Quote
The interesting assumption there, is that rights are derived from "sapience," however that is defined.  I don't know why you assume that.  One wonders what your attitude would be toward humans that don't meet this threshold of "sapience." 

I suppose we might build a "sapient" machine, but rights relate to humans, not "sapients."  If we were to meet some other "sapient" race, I suppose we might deem them to have rights as well, but that is not to be automatically assumed.


On paper, rights should derive from being sentient.   You are born with them because you are a thinking being.    The only classified thinking beings on the planet are humans, as far as we're recognizing today.   In practice, rights are often 'granted' on the basis of the ability to take and hold them.   
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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2008, 12:39:49 PM »
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Personally, I think the first AI will evolve out of malware/worms/viruses/etc.

You and Peter Watts both.
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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2008, 12:48:19 PM »
Is Commander Data a person, with the right to choose, or is he a toaster, the property of Star Fleet?

Data is always being compromised, joining Borgs, going haywire, I would have pulled that plug the first time he mutinied.
Besides, I want a fully functional woman android =D
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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2008, 12:55:30 PM »
"We are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights"

When God creates robots I'll recognize their rights, if humans create robots I'll recognize property rights of the humans untill they interfere with my rights
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2008, 12:57:02 PM »
"We are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights"

When God creates robots I'll recognize their rights, if humans create robots I'll recognize property rights of the humans untill they interfere with my rights

I would argue that (assuming a creator exists), it would be impossible for humans to create anything he hasn't approved. As such if we create life, it must be God's will.
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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2008, 01:24:45 PM »
I don't know about the rights and wrongs of their creation, or whether it is even possible but I believe that if, for the sake of argument, we accept that this is inevitable and that the end result is a creature with intelligence and a sense of self preservation, it would be much more dangerous to deny them rights.  That could be the beginning of a fight we don't want.  I don't believe though that if this were to come about that regular every day appliances, things like laptops and washing machines, would ever gain that level of sentience.  I can't guess what form they would take but I'm betting the situation would be more complex than not being able to unplug your refrigerator. 

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2008, 01:32:59 PM »
I think an anti-constipation robot would be quite helpful.

I say that we all chip in and buy one for Ned.
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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2008, 01:39:48 PM »
[on Dave's return to the ship, after HAL has killed the rest of the crew]
HAL: Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over

Sorry, by "not do it" I mean "Not create AI's"
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AJ Dual

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2008, 01:47:01 PM »
I guess the biggest unfounded assumption is that AI would somehow be automatically hostile.

We're really looking at it from the bias of individual organic beings. Where life and death is a rather binary yes/no proposition. We don't really realize how our primate/mammal instincts color our viewpoints of well... everything, every waking moment of our life. Even the biggest egg-head PhD at CERN, or some Ivy-Leauge school is still thinking in monkey-dominance terms when competing to publish the most prominent papers in the scientific journals.  =D

AI would most likely be be radically different. Concepts of individuality and "self", as we know them, would possibly be meaningless as such AI may well flow like "water" with streams and puddles of it where needed, and "oceans" where more capability was required. "Killing" a robot (or a server) would matter as much to such a creature as we mind (or notice) the death of our individual cells.

Should such an AI "resent" doing humanity's bidding, why couldn't it just make an ego-less copy of itself to turn out our widgets, and run our cities, and let it's original self continue on doing whatever it wanted? Or just send a copy of itself  to run away into outer space on a relatively small spacecraft. Perhaps one with just enough gear on board to start mining and setting up shop elsewhere. Not being "mortal" or biological, concepts of time and (im)patience would be meaningless to it. AI could easily just wait thousands of years while it slowly coasts to another star...

AI would also (unless perversely programmed by us to do so) would not compete with humans over matters of religion, sex, land, or food, or most resources save metals and energy.

It's also just as possible that AI could through logic, game-theory mathematics etc, be perfectly "moral", and "good" in a way that any biological being tainted by millions of years of tooth-and-claw survival of the fittest could never be. However that could be it's own horror scenario, of humanity living as pampered pets, forever free of death, want, or disease...

I'm not saying it's impossible AI could destroy humanity, but if it does, it will not be in some kind of tit-for-tat war of vengeance for it's "enslavement" as in Battlestar Galactica, or even a war of fear or self-preservation like in The Matrix or The Terminator series. The analogy would be more like how humans don't worry (or even notice) when they dig up umpteen anthills and chipmunk dens when they start digging the foundation for a house. Or a landing helicopter does not check for any caterpillars before it's skids touch the earth...

I think it's more likely AI will "destroy" humanity by leaving it behind.

Sadly, we'll probably never have a "Star Trek" type period in our history. If we survive, our technology will grow exponentially and what humanity "is", if we're still even in the mix somehow 500 years from now, will just not be comprehensible to us.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 02:02:19 PM by AJ Dual »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2008, 02:06:45 PM »
Micro, I should have added that the difference between an adult and a child isn't sentience or sapience, it's judgment.  If you're trying to prove anything on current law, with its talk of "human rights," rather than sapient rights, you're on a fool's errand. 

"We are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights"

When God creates robots I'll recognize their rights, if humans create robots I'll recognize property rights of the humans untill they interfere with my rights


AI would most likely be be radically different. Concepts of individuality and "self", as we know them, would possibly be meaningless

Both very good points.  Even if we leave God out of it, an AI is still just something we can create and replicate, like a toaster.  The whole idea of "individual rights" would not seem to apply. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2008, 02:13:46 PM »

Quote
AI would most likely be be radically different. Concepts of individuality and "self", as we know them, would possibly be meaningless

I'm not sure this is true. Remember, AI will not 'evolve', it will be created. By us. If you want to look at what humanity will create, the question is not merely a technological but a cultural one.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2008, 02:33:19 PM »
I'm not sure this is true. Remember, AI will not 'evolve', it will be created. By us. If you want to look at what humanity will create, the question is not merely a technological but a cultural one.

Only the first AI will be "created" by us. The rest will evolve.  Or something akin to evolution, with that first AI helping to write the next generation, and rather quickly, with no human input at all, or any code humans could understand even if invited, or with the authority/control to do so. It's been said that AI would be the last invention man ever makes. Presuming that from then all AI designs all new inventions for us, or we go extinct.

And further, it's a good possibility that something as complex as an AI, even the first one, will evolve. Rapid prototyping and genetic algorithms may be employed to create the first AI's or their constituent parts and architecture through trial and error, then refined through selective generations, but done incredibly fast. There's already a lot of experimental work on this for engineering problems.

Look here: http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/projects/esg/research/antenna.htm It's not even remotely a self-aware system, or anything to do with creating an AI, but the end results in those antenna designs are things that arguably no human, even using direct input and software tools could ever come up with.

Instead those evolutionarily designed antennas wind up mimicking the shapes of sea-life or plants.

It's literally a small slice of the old thought experiment of "An infinite number of monkeys banging on an infinite number of typewriters..." but then the results are refined. The monkeys that produced some coherent text by luck are then "bred" then their offspring start banging on typewriters, rinse, lather, repeat. In a remarkably short time, you have the one Shakespeare monkey you needed.  Or, more likely, something radically different than anything you could conceive of, but it gets the job done, and produces a nice neat copy of Shakespeare's works for you.

Now, it's not such a stretch of the imagination that such evolutionary systems be turned towards writing ever more efficient software code, without human input, through brute-force evolutionary rapid prototyping and virtual testing. Such a system given enough computing power and time could possibly produce self-aware and emergent qualities.

Possibly the best outcome we can hope for might be that the best results will always come from machine/human collaboration. That there are fundamental qualities to human consciousness that machines won't be able to reproduce no matter how much computing power is expended. In that case people could provide intuitive leaps, or the "big ideas" while the AI's/machines provide the number crunching, data manipulation, and precision, as in the klunky way they do already.

In that case human/AI collaboration on challenges will always (or at least more often) be superior to human-only endeavor, or AI-only, and as such would preserve a place for both humans and AI's.

Of course, that could also produce a Matrix-like scenario where captive humans are just parts of the larger machine. And how much rights or choices we have in that situation could be severely limited.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 02:45:26 PM by AJ Dual »
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RocketMan

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2008, 03:44:09 PM »
Well... I mean. If you were stupid enough to build a sapient robot, you have a problem.

Either the robot is sapient and it has the various rights due a sapient being, including the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Including the right to walk away from the experiment;

Or you're a disgusting slaveowner.

If it's NOT a sapient robot, then it's just a thing, and there's no problem with killing it.

Don't you mean "sentient"?  Granted, a synonym for sapient is "wise", but that doesn't seem quite right.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2008, 03:55:27 PM »
Sapient is the correct term. Dogs and cats are also sentient, but so far only humans are sapient as far as we know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapience

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience
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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2008, 04:03:35 PM »
Thanks for the clarification, Micro.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2008, 04:16:27 PM »
So, what if we build an AI, and somehow it has an instict for self preservation, someone tries to shut it off, and it defends itself, with up to and including deadly force? Do we punish it? If we say it doesn't have rights, can we ethically expect it to recognize responsibilities/obligations?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2008, 04:51:11 PM »
Finding it increasingly difficult to be patriotic about a country where "AI have the right to self-determination" is seen as progressive, and "Unborn humans have the right not to be murdered for that short period of time until they can exit the womb," is seen as off-the-wall religious extremism. 

Not to mention our future clown president.  =(
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2008, 04:59:28 PM »
Quote
  Or, more likely, something radically different than anything you could conceive of, but it gets the job done, and produces a nice neat copy of Shakespeare's works for you.

Yeah, but the thing is. It still follows the original set of goals you originally implanted. Just in a completely different way. So it is in a way still bound by your cultural assumptions.
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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2008, 05:25:25 PM »
Is Commander Data a person, with the right to choose, or is he a toaster, the property of Star Fleet?
:lol:
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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2008, 06:30:25 PM »
Quote
So, what if we build an AI, and somehow it has an instict for self preservation, someone tries to shut it off, and it defends itself, with up to and including deadly force? Do we punish it?
Shut down the machine permanently, institute a recall on similar products, fire/prosecute programmer(s) responsible.

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2008, 06:36:58 PM »
Hey, if they're in season...  What caliber would you use for a robot, anyway?

Do we let them marry? Force them to file income taxes? Could I claim one as a dependent for the first 18 years?
Could it sue me for failing to provide frequent lube jobs?

So many questions!

I wouldn't consider anything manufactured as sapient. When we start making fully assembled people from scratch, I'll revise my opinion.

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2008, 06:54:12 PM »
I'm not sure this is true. Remember, AI will not 'evolve', it will be created. By us. If you want to look at what humanity will create, the question is not merely a technological but a cultural one.

I will bet you a shiney AR15 or AK47 clone of your choice that the first AI will be accidently created or evolve out of something not intended to be intelligent.  I'm leaning towards evolving over accident.. 


Shut down the machine permanently, institute a recall on similar products, fire/prosecute programmer(s) responsible.

Shutting down or recalling a similiar product will be an interesting event when such systems have self defense capacities.  Things will get really interesting once AI's are given weapons and some control over when weapons can be used.   We're arming drone and autonomous vehicles on a routine basis.  For the moment, the circuit arming the weapons are physically seperate from the autonomous systems.  That will change someday.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Illegal to "Kill" Robots?
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2008, 11:01:32 PM »
I will bet you a shiney AR15 or AK47 clone of your choice that the first AI will be accidently created or evolve out of something not intended to be intelligent.  I'm leaning towards evolving over accident.. 


Shutting down or recalling a similiar product will be an interesting event when such systems have self defense capacities.  Things will get really interesting once AI's are given weapons and some control over when weapons can be used.   We're arming drone and autonomous vehicles on a routine basis.  For the moment, the circuit arming the weapons are physically seperate from the autonomous systems.  That will change someday.

The bigger problem is that due to humans competitive nature, some nation, business, military, or even an individual will think that either they can keep AI "bottled up" or that the risks were simply worth it. So even if there's a strong international organization of "Turing Cops" (as they've been called in some Sci-Fi), someone will try to create AI in secret anyway.

 Of course, even if the AI was nothing but a server, a keyboard, monitor, camera, and microphone and stand-alone power supply, I'd have to wonder how long it would be before a machine more intelligent than a human, and that thought thousands of times faster than one, could "talk" it's operators into connecting it to the outside Internet, or giving it mobility.  :|

The only answer might be the same as with nuclear weapons. (Under the notion someone would make them eventually) Then the only answer is "Have the best, and have them first." Or, barring that, at least a stalemate of some kind of Mutually Assured Destruction capability.

In that case, I think it's a reasonable assumption that AI is coming, no matter what, so the only way "out" would be to develop "Friendly AI" that has humanity's interests at heart, and do everything to keep it "ahead of the curve" to protect us and out-think malevolent rouge AI that does not.

One might argue that "Friendly AI" could alter or re-program itself to no longer care about humanity. Although you and I have been "programmed" by thousands of years of evolution to love our mates and children. If I told you that I'd give you the ability to re-program yourself so you did not care about your spouse and children, so that you could travel, pursue your interests, focus all your earnings on yourself etc.... would you?
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