Author Topic: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks  (Read 50647 times)

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #100 on: September 13, 2012, 07:32:23 AM »
And we can now add our friends in Yemen to the list

*sigh* Seriously, RKL had it spot on. Need to simply start shooting anyone who hops the fence and enters the grounds. This crap isn't going to stop under it is universally understood that there will be severe and immediate consequences for such actions.

birdman

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Re: Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #101 on: September 13, 2012, 07:40:50 AM »
*sigh* Seriously, RKL had it spot on. Need to simply start shooting anyone who hops the fence and enters the grounds. This crap isn't going to stop under it is universally understood that there will be severe and immediate consequences for such actions.

Unfortunately, not going to happen.  These countries understand our media concerns, and also the value of a disproportionate response.  We burn a book, they kill people.  We accidentally kill people, they kill more.  It inverts the power structure.  Besides, this administration isn't going to risk the bad press of shooting unarmed people before an election, especially when they have to somehow convince people that their warm and fuzzy foreign policy approach not only has worked, but is better than the alternative.

makattak

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #102 on: September 13, 2012, 08:12:46 AM »
OK...

let's run with this thought experiment.

Where do you live?

Yeah... I'm not posting that information on a public forum. You'll have to go with a hypothetical, but I will tell you I live in the United States.

So all those people who spend money on things that reduce collateral damage. THey must be morons?

Depends on the situation. Our singular focus on limiting collateral damage has encouraged countries to turn a blind eye to terrorists (or even give clandestine encouragement to them.) If a country were aware that when the terrorists provoke an act of war with the United States, the US will respond with overwhelming force and the host country to that terror will suffer in response, that same host country will take special effort to prevent such acts and dispense with the subtle encouragements.

For example, when was the last time a Russian Ambassador was assassinated as ours just was? (Since MB is a student of Russian history, I'm assuming he'll be able to answer that.)
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So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

makattak

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #103 on: September 13, 2012, 08:27:09 AM »
Oh, I forgot to highlight another part of my reasoning:

Quote
He said Stevens, 52, and other officials were moved to a second building, deemed safer, after the initial wave of protests at the consulate. According to al-Sharef, members of the Libyan security team seem to have indicated to the protesters the building to which the American officials had been relocated, and that building then came under attack.

Collaboration.

I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #104 on: September 13, 2012, 08:54:48 AM »

Morality applies to pretty much all human activity, almost by definition.

Why would you purposefully kill more innocent people when the possibility is around to kill less?

If it is possible - for example - to find out where the terrorists live, fire a Tomahawk missile at said location, kill the terrorists - and, say, fifty innocents - why should we instead pick an option that would also destroy the city they live in?

Happily we have reached a time  where guided weapons reduce collateral damage - and simultaneously make friendly troops safer (because rather than deploy, for instance, multiple squadrons of bombers to plow everything around the target into the ground with unguided bombs, exposing the bombers to AA fire in the process, you fire just one or two ALCMs from beyond the horizon) and improve engagement effectiveness.

This is not, mind you, some starry-eyed leftist view that 'if one Pakistani child is killed it is a war crime'. Merely pointing out he calls 'to level the entire city' are at the best merely emoting.


I'm not accusing you of being a starry-eyed leftist, MB.  However I'm not talking about terrorist-targeted strikes.  I'm talking about wars between Nations.

I don't consider these attacks against our consulates/embassies to be terrorist strikes.  I'm weighing whether this is a democratically chosen movement in these countries, or not.  And I'm trying to balance the anti-US sentiment against the peace sentiment and see where these folks stand.  I know that the Occupy movement doesn't represent 99% of the US, and I'm not associating these rioters/murderers with Al-Qaeda immediately, though I imagine there are strong ties to the Muslim Brotherhood movement.

Fancy guided missiles and bombs do limit collateral damage... but what about wars between disparately equipped combatants?  The US has smart bombs and guided cruise missiles and a fleet to carry hundreds of thousands of soldiers across the world and so on, but Iran doesn't.  

So when we attack Iran (or Libya or Egypt or some un-named Ickystan), we use all that to our advantage to limit collateral damage.  But if an Ickystan wants to attack us back, they don't have aircraft carriers and battle groups and stealth bombers and precision munitions.  The best they can put up is some sort of espionage attack based around a manual bombing campaign, or long range missile strikes (if they even have them, which most don't).

A country in such a situation has to throw morality out the window in order to fight.  There's just not any means to fight a war, otherwise.

And when a country decides to choose war with a technologically superior enemy (i.e. Libya goes to war with the US), we are likely to use precision strikes against military targets to begin with, but the only way Libya can possibly win such a war is to strike at US citizens directly and make them end the war due to political pressure or "homeland" fear.  And when Libya escalates to that level, our military is clear to strike at civilian populations as well since Libya started non-combatant strikes first.

MB:  Is the above pic similar to the Ron Edry "Israel loves Iran" youtube campaign?

Are you familiar with that?

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/03/israel-loves-iran-campaign-gains-force/


(Those of you unfamiliar with it, it is an anarcho-stateless attempt to bypass the State and cause two groups of people to communicate directly and bypass the puppet masters that seem intent on perpetual war.)


I bring this up because I hear that the "R3voLution" is gaining steam in the middle east.

Do you know anything about this above, MB?

So I ponder all of this in the context of:  Is the Libyan State being the antagonist here, or the Libyan people themselves?  Which direction does democracy and popular sentiment sway?  What picture is more accurate for the Saharan African muslim nations: parading our murdered ambassador through the streets, or the photo with english language signs?

I know Libya has a very weak government right now, and I suspect the Muslim Brotherhood movement has a strong foothold in it.  I don't know how much control they have over the democratic sentiment of the people themselves, or if the Libyans disapprove of the Muslim Brotherhood or controlling government.

I just consider that the ultimate response of "glassing the city" is directly tied to the democratic feelings of the population of that area towards the US.  If the bulk of the population loathes us and supports burning our embassies and murdering our ambassadors with no provocation, then leveling the city might be an appropriate response.  It worked in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and changed public sentiment in Japan during WWII (die-hard religious conviction indoctrinated into the population at large), and it worked in Dresden by completely dismantling the industrial capacity of a city that fed Germany's war machine.

Since radical Islam is not tied to a single Nation, however, nuking or mass-bombing a city to attempt to change popular sentiment in that enemy country will certainly provoke radicals elsewhere to attempt a significant bombing in the US.

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mtnbkr

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #105 on: September 13, 2012, 08:56:04 AM »
Oh, I forgot to highlight another part of my reasoning:


Quote
He said Stevens, 52, and other officials were moved to a second building, deemed safer, after the initial wave of protests at the consulate. According to al-Sharef, members of the Libyan security team SEEMto have indicated to the protesters the building to which the American officials had been relocated, and that building then came under attack.

Collaboration.

Maybe, maybe not.  "Seem" covers a lot of possibilities.

Chris

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #106 on: September 13, 2012, 10:25:32 AM »
Issue the jarhead gaurds crew-served weapons and let them they can do their job.  Maybe some claymores, frag grenades, and flame throwers, too.  Toss in a couple heli-type UAVs to keep an eye on things from above.

A SAW in every Marine guard's hands behind good cover ought to keep the grounds clean.
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Ben

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #107 on: September 13, 2012, 10:27:08 AM »
I leave this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13xx1J5FdNE

Quote
Self defense is not only our right, it is our duty.

Somehow I don't think we'll hear that from Obama.
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birdman

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #108 on: September 13, 2012, 10:30:49 AM »
A SAW in every Marine guard's hands behind good cover ought to keep the grounds clean.

Well, assuming the brass is policed properly...though, brass-paved grounds would certainly send a message.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #109 on: September 13, 2012, 10:34:13 AM »
Issue the jarhead gaurds crew-served weapons and let them they can do their job.  Maybe some claymores, frag grenades, and flame throwers, too.  Toss in a couple heli-type UAVs to keep an eye on things from above.

A SAW in every Marine guard's hands behind good cover ought to keep the grounds clean.

Almost all those things are in the embassay gaurd's arsenal.  The problem is that I'd bet a $20 right now that they were under specific ROE not to shoot unarmed people, not to have loaded weapons, and probably a whole pile of other idiocy.




Retribution for these acts? Meh.  The real problem is they were allowed to occur in the first place. 
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longeyes

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #110 on: September 13, 2012, 11:32:51 AM »
Issue the jarhead gaurds crew-served weapons and let them they can do their job.  Maybe some claymores, frag grenades, and flame throwers, too.  Toss in a couple heli-type UAVs to keep an eye on things from above.

A SAW in every Marine guard's hands behind good cover ought to keep the grounds clean.

+1

Our security forces, if we are to have consulates & embassies, must be up to the job in terms of protection.  Clearly a few Marines with (unloaded?) M-16s fails that test.
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longeyes

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2012, 11:35:05 AM »
We need to think long and hard about what was described above as our "media concerns."  A people able to be manipulated emotionally by a corrupt mass media establishment is hardly a free people.  Therein lies a huge challenge for this culture, and perhaps the rock on which it breaks.
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birdman

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2012, 12:47:15 PM »
We need to think long and hard about what was described above as our "media concerns."  A people able to be manipulated emotionally by a corrupt mass media establishment is hardly a free people.  Therein lies a huge challenge for this culture, and perhaps the rock on which it breaks.

I don't know if you are describing us or them.

Phyphor

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2012, 01:02:24 PM »
Yea, the Ambassador was a man committed to Libya, and they killed him for it.  Screw them, and the rest of the savages.  We can get out oil from closer sources (and probably cheaper and more safely,) I think we should be completely done with them all.

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MillCreek

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2012, 01:04:12 PM »
Based on what I am seeing in the media, the US Government sure seems to be leaning toward the Libyan consultate attack as being done by trained militia troops instead of a mob.  We apparently already have drones up tracking a couple of camps associated with this militia, which may have Al-Qaeda ties.  Hmm.  
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longeyes

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2012, 01:29:49 PM »
I don't know if you are describing us or them.

Both.

Mind-control is mind-control. 

"Domari nolo."

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longeyes

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #116 on: September 13, 2012, 01:31:03 PM »
Based on what I am seeing in the media, the US Government sure seems to be leaning toward the Libyan consultate attack as being done by trained militia troops instead of a mob.  We apparently already have drones up tracking a couple of camps associated with this militia, which may have Al-Qaeda ties.  Hmm.  

All the drones in the world won't change what is being hatched inside our own White House and State Dept.  It would be funny if not so pitiable.
"Domari nolo."

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Fitz

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #117 on: September 13, 2012, 01:32:46 PM »
I don't know if you are describing us or them.

yes
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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #118 on: September 13, 2012, 02:30:44 PM »

For example, when was the last time a Russian Ambassador was assassinated as ours just was? (Since MB is a student of Russian history, I'm assuming he'll be able to answer that.)


I can only think of Griboedov's assassination. But there had also been a kidnapping, quite recently, of Russian diplomats in Lebanon.

This was still in the Soviet era. The Russians responded by sending Team Alpha to methodically assassinate the leaders of various militia groups in Beirut (which were many and plentiful) until the people who had the hostages got the drift and gave in.
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HankB

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Embassy Marines in Egypt Disarmed by US Ambassador??
« Reply #119 on: September 13, 2012, 04:06:32 PM »
I know there's already a thread going on about the embassy attacks, but here's a report (linked by Drudge) that the U.S. Ambassador to Egypt "did not authorize" the US Marines on station to carry live ammo.

http://freebeacon.com/reports-marines-not-permitted-live-ammo/

Not familiar with the source . . . is the "Washington Free Beacon" credible?

(More and more I'm reminded of Carter's inept vacillation, handwringing, and virtual bedwetting when our embassy in Iran was attacked . . . )
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #120 on: September 13, 2012, 04:07:15 PM »
http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressOffice.PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=7e95d18f-a9eb-80ef-e599-95754897384e&Region_id=&Issue_id=1bd7f3a7-a52b-4ad0-a338-646c6a780d65

Quote from: Senator John McCain in Benghazi, Libya April 22, 2011.
“I have met with these brave fighters, and they are not Al-Qaeda. To the contrary: They are Libyan patriots who want to liberate their nation. We should help them do it.”

We back 'em...

Then they kill our Ambassadors.



Let's just stop doing ANYTHING over there.  At all.  Leave 'em the hell alone.  Quit picking sides trying to manipulate outcomes.
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brimic

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Re: Embassy Marines in Egypt Disarmed by US Ambassador??
« Reply #121 on: September 13, 2012, 04:10:51 PM »
 :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
What's the point of having Marines if they are unarmed?
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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #122 on: September 13, 2012, 04:12:13 PM »
the folks that mccain refers to were involved with the killing?  can you support that?  besides "they were all libyan!"
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Tallpine

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Re: Embassy Marines in Egypt Disarmed by US Ambassador??
« Reply #123 on: September 13, 2012, 04:23:21 PM »
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
What's the point of having Marines if they are unarmed?

Snappy uniforms ?  =|
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Egypt and Libya embassy attacks
« Reply #124 on: September 13, 2012, 04:32:37 PM »
the folks that mccain refers to were involved with the killing?  can you support that?  besides "they were all libyan!"


http://www.vice.com/read/al-qaeda-plants-its-flag-in-libya

Quote
But according to multiple eyewitnesses—myself included—one can now see both the Libyan rebel flag and the flag of al Qaeda fluttering atop Benghazi’s courthouse.





The rebels have either made new friends, or revealed old friends, or AQ has infiltrated the rebel movement.

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