Auto Thieves Drown, Cops Blamed

[Firethorn]

Some tile crawlers scent settlement money. Hence the wailing and gnashing of teeth

I don't think that they'll get far.  They did make attempts.

While I'll backseat drive just like KD is, I'm going to follow up that you're depending on prior experience.  It's a bit like demanding a woman go out the back door of her house rather than shooting the goblins coming in the front.  You might know that the backdoor would have been safe from the after-action reports, but not only didn't the woman know that, it might have honestly not occurred to her.

What about when said mud is actually underwater, it is dark, and the vehicle is 15 ft underwater.

I'd think it was 15 feet into the water - IE 15 feet from the shore.

Also, underwater mud is denser mud, which you'll float on even easier.  It's part of why salt water is denser than fresh, as several heavily loaded ships learned to their displeasure when entering a fresh-water source like a river from the ocean.

Buoyant means it floats. If it's submerged, it sank -- not floated.

I think he was trying to say that it provides more buoyancy. Not that it, itself, is more buoyant.  IE you'd "float" on it easier than plain water.

[Hawkmoon]

I think he was trying to say that it provides more buoyancy. Not that it, itself, is more buoyant.  IE you'd "float" on it easier than plain water.

That might work if the mud is the surface, without water over it, so you can flop down and "swim" across the surface. If the water was deep enough to drown the occupants of the car, the water was too deep for the mud to be exposed on the surface, so to traverse it you would have to walk, not snake along the surface of the mud.

Underwater mud sucks -- literally. I've been caught in the stuff. Somewhere on my great-grandmother's old farm there's a pond that probably still holds one of my knee high rubber boots. I got bogged down too firmly to get myself out. Had to be pulled out, and the mud was sticky enough that my boot stayed behind and I was pulled right out of it. I didn't feel like trying to retrieve it.

The mere fact that "dive team logs" are among the documents included in the investigation should tell you that the water was too deep to allow trying to "swim" along the surface of the mud.

[Boomhauer]

I can confirm the danger of the mud and the great difficulty it poses in trying to get through it. Dangerous stuff.

[Firethorn]

If the water was deep enough to drown the occupants of the car, the water was too deep for the mud to be exposed on the surface, so to traverse it you would have to walk, not snake along the surface of the mud.

First, I'm thinking that the depth of the water over the mud is likely highly variable.  Second, you can 'swim' in something like 12" of water.  If the water is high enough to drown in for an active adult, it's deep enough to swim in.  If the mud is too high, that's what 'snaking' is for.  So you'd 'snake' until you could swim.

That being said, given the circumstances I don't blame the cops one bit.  They had approximately 1 minute to be doing exactly the right thing, in extraordinarily difficult and dangerous circumstances, without the training and experience to know what to do.

Underwater mud sucks -- literally. I've been caught in the stuff. Somewhere on my great-grandmother's old farm there's a pond that probably still holds one of my knee high rubber boots. I got bogged down too firmly to get myself out. Had to be pulled out, and the mud was sticky enough that my boot stayed behind and I was pulled right out of it. I didn't feel like trying to retrieve it.

That's because you drove yourself into it.  The goal with buoyancy tricks is to NOT get bogged down in the mud.

[Ben]

Also, underwater mud is denser mud, which you'll float on even easier. 

That will depend on composition, and nobody is really gonna be able to "float" on or over the mud if they have to pull on car door handles, grab people, etc. Physics again. Also I'll leave this here regarding a guy who barely touched the bottom and had a bit of a harrowing experience:

At least three ran into serious trouble in the process (including Nuno Gomes, who got stuck in the mud on the bottom of Bushman's Hole for two minutes before escaping).

http://www.outsideonline.com/1922711/raising-dead

[MechAg94]

I think Ben said it best this morning.  You might be able to float on the mud, but to do anything constructive, you can't just roll around on top.  You also can't assume the mud is very fluid or that you can stay on top of it without getting a foot sunk into it.  Way too many factors to try to claim the cops were in the wrong.

[Scout26]

Plus all the kit cops wear these days all have negative buoyancy, service belt with sidearm, taser, reloads, cuffs, radio etc. and a vest. 

Besides, I didn't realize we had someone from Canton on here that is a expert on mud.   

[Ben]

Besides, I didn't realize we had someone from Canton on here that is a expert on mud.   

 

[Hawkmoon]

That's because you drove yourself into it.  The goal with buoyancy tricks is to NOT get bogged down in the mud.

Even if a cop or three managed to "swim" themselves through or over the mud to the vehicle, once there they would have to have put their feet down and start wrestling with doors or breaking windows and trying to pull the young "ladies" out of the vehicle. At night, in murky water.

I'm not a universal police fan boy but, in this situation, I can't fault the officers.

[just Warren]

I'm not a universal police fan boy but, in this situation, I can't fault the officers.

Yeah as much as I bang on the cops for their manifest failures this isn't one of them.

Even if a cop or three managed to "swim" themselves through or over the mud to the vehicle, once there they would have to have put their feet down and start wrestling with doors or breaking windows and trying to pull the young "ladies" out of the vehicle. At night, in murky water.

Those girls would have been so panicked that and so tightly holding on to the cop that he would be unable to free himself to save his own life in the event they could not be pulled from the car.

And what if the car turtled or nosedived into the mud? If you're connected to the car in anyway when that happens you are doomed.

If I was there I would have risked it if it was my family, but the rest of the world you are on your own.

[Jamisjockey]

If you've got muddy scummy ponds around and a job as any sort of first responder, it might be a good idea to learn how to traverse mud like that.

No, it won't be pleasant, and you'll be filthy, but it's not like the uniform will stay clean while you're in the water anyway.  The mud, however, is dramatically more buoyant than water, so you belly crawl until it's too soupy for that and then switch to something more like a breaststroke.  I've crossed some pretty nasty slime like that, and in worse conditions than they were likely dealing with.  Jeans and a Dickies work shirt, because going home to change would have cost us a calf.  No air tank, no other toys besides a climbing line and harness so the folks on "dry" ground could drag me back if need be, and could haul me and the calf back once I got to it.  (That should be part of any first responder's kit, since something as simple as a wet grassy embankment can leave you stuck in a ditch until somebody comes up with a line.)

Haven't spent any time around real swamps, have you?

[dogmush]

That's a retention pond.  It's nasty and muddy.  It's clogged with who knows what kind of thick vegetation.  Getting stuck in the mud and sinking below water level is a real thing, and it happens.  Also, because it's a retention pond it's deeper than a natural pond of that size would be, and the sides are steep and slick.  The cops mention in the dash cam video that the car was already submerged.

And I mention again:

Gators.  A man (hiding from cops that had pursued him) was killed by a gator in a retention pond less than 2 miles from this a couple years ago.

Attempting an underwater, night, rescue of panicked people without proper training and gear, which LEO's don't carry, is stupid bordering on suicidal.  Really.

[brimic]

That's a retention pond.  It's nasty and muddy.  It's clogged with who knows what kind of thick vegetation.  Getting stuck in the mud and sinking below water level is a real thing, and it happens.  Also, because it's a retention pond it's deeper than a natural pond of that size would be, and the sides are steep and slick.  The cops mention in the dash cam video that the car was already submerged.

And I mention again:

Gators.  A man (hiding from cops that had pursued him) was killed by a gator in a retention pond less than 2 miles from this a couple years ago.

Attempting an underwater, night, rescue of panicked people without proper training and gear, which LEO's don't carry, is stupid bordering on suicidal.  Really.

I helped with building a golf course once... The ponds are sprayed with a thick layer of powdered bentonite before adding water in order to keep the pond from eroding and the water from seeping. When wet, it feels like gritty grease, slippery yet sticky at the same time. I would imagine retention ponds are constructed in a similar manner.

[dogmush]

The ones I've been stupid enough to go in (in the same area as this one)  seemed to have a 4 or so foot layer of mud and duck *expletive deleted*it for a bottom.

My GSD got stuck in one about 3 miles from that cemetery. Getting her out was an ordeal 5 ft from shore in 30" of water.

[Scout26]

This is the dumbest debate I've seen in long time.   

[just Warren]

It does seem to suck people in.

[dogmush]

It's the nature of the internet, sometimes you get bogged down in the minutiae.

[230RN]

^ I see what you did there, but this is not a trivial thread.  The opening incident triggered a valid discussion of the dangers of muck.

I can confirm the danger of the mud and the great difficulty it poses in trying to get through it. Dangerous stuff.

Confirmed again.  I walked out on what looked like dried, checkered mud and suddenly broke through up to my knees.  Had great difficult extricating myself, really really scary.  And stinky, but that was a minor thing in comparison.

This thread provides warnings to others about the problem and confirms the decision not to send officers in... in my opinion based on the reported situation.  I'm also thinking in terms of attempted ice rescues which might require special equipment for the rescue attempt.

Terry, 230RN

[zxcvbob]

Like Dogmush said, mom couldn't care less about the kids (didn't even have custody) until one of them got killed and suddenly she hit the ghetto jackpot.  *expletive deleted*ck her.  (I don't say that lightly, I have lost a kid)  I don't like cops, but I don't see that they did anything wrong here. 

[seeker_two]

Stupid should hurt....and, in this case, it did.

[Mannlicher]

sad, sort of, that the girls died.  Actions have consequences though.  Some of life's lessons are difficult.

[Jocassee]

Pluff Mud. Nasty, also dangerous.

[roo_ster]

I lived (relatively) nearby and very well might have known the aunt of one of the deceased.  I do not know the pond in question, but spent some years tromping through Florida swamps & muck.  Yeah, there is no way you'd get me to go into a lake therebouts at night wearing LEO gear.  A good way to get a dead cop, just from the muck.  Then the gators and cottonmouths are no joke.

Let's face it:  Darwin proctored two exams that night.  One group passed, the other not so much.

Oh, and I have helped pull a cow out of the muck alongside the Rio Grande.  No comparison.

[grampster]

I just watched 7 minutes of the sheriff shove it up the hindquarters of the media who, as usual, picked and chose what they wanted to say about the situation and twisted it all into a bunch of BS.  There is a lot of video and detailed reports of what went on.  The media didn't do their job.  What happened is not what the media is reporting.  The police did a good job and made an attempt to save the thieves.  Unfortunately, their continuous criminal behavior got them killed.  It's on them.  Sad state of affairs is the cultural wasteland that is the reality of a fair segment of our countrymen.  

[230RN]

Thought about that remark about opening car doors underwater .

Hm.  Water pressure force on the door, assuming 9 feet in average depth and a 4 sq ft door is over 2,000 lb if my arithmetic is correct.

I'm not signing this one 'cause I'm not sure my 'rithmetic is correct.