Auto Thieves Drown, Cops Blamed

[KD5NRH]

Did you fall down and hit your head?

Hell, I hope not.  After you all got done figuring out voice dial so you wouldn't have to risk breaking a nail to call 911, you'd refuse to let the paramedics move me for fear one of them might get a backache.

Second of all, all three of the little deceased shits had records. This just ended their careers quite early, saving taxpayers a bundle of cash and future victims a lot of trouble.

Was that known at the time?  For that matter, until the car was pulled out, were they even completely sure of who was in it?  How quickly we throw the Sixth Amendment out the window when it's more convenient to say they deserved to die without benefit of a trial.

That was on "Walker, Texas Ranger."
Documentary TV that wasn't........

You doubt the Chuck.  That is unwise.

But I guarantee if one of the cops had matched their failed attempt to reenact every third episode of the Dukes of Hazzard, it suddenly wouldn't have been too dangerous to go in.

[lupinus]

Hell, I hope not.  After you all got done figuring out voice dial so you wouldn't have to risk breaking a nail to call 911, you'd refuse to let the paramedics move me for fear one of them might get a backache.

Only if you drive yourself in a pond first, and they try then realize it's not going to work.

Then we'll leave you there for a bit I suppose.

[Scout26]

I'm not going to lock this , just simply point out that one should never wrestle with a pig.  It only gets you muddy and the pig enjoys it

[Ben]

It only gets you muddy and the pig enjoys it

So we're saying "yes" to APS Saturday night mud fights? Because we could do it up just like the WWF and give ourselves wrestler's names and stuff. I still say it would be awesome. 

[Phyphor]

Hell, I hope not.  After you all got done figuring out voice dial so you wouldn't have to risk breaking a nail to call 911, you'd refuse to let the paramedics move me for fear one of them might get a backache.

Was that known at the time?  For that matter, until the car was pulled out, were they even completely sure of who was in it?  How quickly we throw the Sixth Amendment out the window when it's more convenient to say they deserved to die without benefit of a trial.

You doubt the Chuck.  That is unwise.

But I guarantee if one of the cops had matched their failed attempt to reenact every third episode of the Dukes of Hazzard, it suddenly wouldn't have been too dangerous to go in.

Didn't they show on one of the videos released cops carrying their uniforms away from the pond? IIRC, a couple of cops DID try to go in but couldn't make any headway.  Also do remember how long it actually takes to drown.

I don't care who was in the car, the reality is that in the time they had available and with the equipment they had on hand, all they would have done is failed.

[Hawkmoon]

Did they get a unicorn to hook up the winch?

Somebody was obviously able to get to it.  Even through the magic mud vacuum and past the sarlacc's uvula.

The article made reference to "dive team." They sent divers in to hook it up. Not patrol officers in street uniforms.

[cordex]

Was that known at the time?  For that matter, until the car was pulled out, were they even completely sure of who was in it?  How quickly we throw the Sixth Amendment out the window when it's more convenient to say they deserved to die without benefit of a trial.

They were not condemned to death because of anything except by their own driving into a pond.  Had it happened unrelated to car theft they still would have died.  Their criminal decisions prior to their death might impact a retrospective analysis of the scale of the tragedy, but have no bearing on the ultimate result.  The cops didn't drop them into the lake and I don't think they just shrugged and walked away the way you seem to think they did.

[230RN]

^

Had it happened unrelated to car theft they still would have died.  Their criminal decisions prior to their death might impact a retrospective analysis of the scale of the tragedy, but have no bearing on the ultimate result.

But weren't they being pursued because it was a stolen car?

Might I assume they were therefore moving along pretty fast?

Maybe I ought to re-read the OP and other links, but it seems to me if they didn't stop during the pursuit, they were going too fast to avoid the the pond.

The first cause then, would have been the original theft.

ETA:  Well, I re-read it, for what the news report is worth:

It started when a deputy reported spotting the stolen 1998 Honda Accord without headlights on March 31 near St. Petersburg. After trying to escape law enforcement, the driver apparently missed a sharp turn near a cemetery, plunging into the water, Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri said.

[cordex]

But weren't they being pursued because it was a stolen car?

Yes, sort of, although I'm not sure I see the relevance.  In either case - and my fundamental point - their death (that is, drowning in the submerged car) was not a result of the cops coldly pronouncing a death sentence on them because of their crimes.

The deputy spotted the car without headlights and likely initiated the stop based on that.  Unless he had time to run the plates he probably didn't even know it was stolen at that point.  In any case, had they stopped when the cops hit the lights they would be alive. 

Their death was no more punishment for stealing the car than it was for driving without headlights or walking out the door in the morning.

[MechAg94]

They sell those safety hammers that can break auto glass for a reason.  Getting cars submerged with people in them happens occasionally with or without criminal conduct. 

I did see a news report on the safety hammers out of Houston last week during the flooding.  The first hammer a news reporter tried failed.  The sharp tip just blunted.  Apparently, the tip was made of aluminum and couldn't break the glass.  A steel tipped hammer was obtained and it broke the glass easily.  Something to watch out for if you buy one.

[Firethorn]

A steel tipped hammer was obtained and it broke the glass easily.  Something to watch out for if you buy one.

Do you think it'd be worth it to just buy an actual ball peen hammer or such, just to be sure?

[dogmush]

9mm works.

[MillCreek]

Do you think it'd be worth it to just buy an actual ball peen hammer or such, just to be sure?

http://www.amazon.com/resqme-Seatbelt-Breaker-KeyChain-8-3-Inch/dp/B000IDUW5C/ref=pd_sim_sbs_263_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=418GXF1adaL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR135%2C160_&refRID=19ZREF0K89C560V99QER

I have one of these in each car, hanging from the rear view mirror, and on my tank bag on my motorcycle.  The hanging from the rear view mirror means that it should stay put in the event of a collision such that I can still reach it.  If it is loose inside the cabin or in the glove box, I may not be able to reach it if needed.  This brand is very popular amongst police, fire and EMS.

[41magsnub]

9mm works.

Kinda loud inside a car

[wmenorr67]

Kinda loud inside a car

Would you rather be deaf or dead?

[Boomhauer]

Firethorn if you look on Youtube there is video of a reporter trying to break a car window with a hammer. It bounced off. Tempered glass breaks easiest with a sharp point.

[Firethorn]

Firethorn if you look on Youtube there is video of a reporter trying to break a car window with a hammer. It bounced off. Tempered glass breaks easiest with a sharp point.

Good point. There was a reason I suggested a ball peen rather than a normal hammer.  Should consider a "bullet point" - but a reputable tool should be good as well.

I just don't like the idea of buying the actual rescue device and it turning out to be made from aluminum or otherwise unsuitable.

[zxcvbob]

How about an ice pick? (for breaking tempered glass) 

Also, the windshield is not tempered, it's laminated safety glass. It should be easier to break but it won't shatter; you'll have to push it out, but if it's glued in place maybe that doesn't work?

[41magsnub]

Would you rather be deaf or dead?

Option 3, have something else handy that will also work.

[KD5NRH]

Kinda loud inside a car

Even worse from outside when underwater; incompressible medium and all that.  IIRC, along the lines of disorientingly loud, which is bad underwater.  Use the pointiest bit of the gun.

I just don't like the idea of buying the actual rescue device and it turning out to be made from aluminum or otherwise unsuitable.

I've put a boot through a car window before, but what I keep wondering is how the water pressure on one side would affect the breaking process.  I'd expect it to make it even easier with a pointy object, but darn near impossible with a boot heel or other large, flat one.

[Firethorn]

How about an ice pick? (for breaking tempered glass)  

Also, the windshield is not tempered, it's laminated safety glass. It should be easier to break but it won't shatter; you'll have to push it out, but if it's glued in place maybe that doesn't work?

I think we've all been looking at not taking out the windshield, but the side windows.  The windshield, as you say, is laminated.  In order to get out through it breaking it is basically useless, any holes you punch won't expand significantly, etc...  You basically have to rip it out of it's frame.

On the other hand, the side windows are tempered safety glass, and should completely shatter into small fragments when dinged.

Kinda loud inside a car

If your car is sinking into the water, should you be that worried about it?

[BobR]

the side windows are tempered safety glass, and should completely shatter into small fragments when dinged.

A small veer, any sharp pointy thing can (and should) break a side window. In fact, I have heard that the porcelain from a broken spark plug if thrown with enough force is very capable of shattering a side window. Not much use in the sinking in the water and probably panicking scenario but could come in handy sometime for something else. 

bib

[zxcvbob]

I think we've all been looking at not taking out the windshield, but the side windows.  The windshield, as you say, is laminated.  In order to get out through it breaking it is basically useless, any holes you punch won't expand significantly, etc...  You basically have to rip it out of it's frame.

On the other hand, the side windows are tempered safety glass, and should completely shatter into small fragments when dinged.

If your car is sinking into the water, should you be that worried about it?

I shouldn't have mentioned the windshield, 'cause the point was about using an icepick to break the side windows.  I think it should work, but you don't have a lot of mass to swing.  A spring-loaded center punch might be even better.

Ball-peen hammer, with a hole drilled in the ball and a hardened concrete nail (head ground off) epoxied in there. You'd want to make this up ahead of time  :)

[dogmush]

Even worse from outside when underwater; incompressible medium and all that.  IIRC, along the lines of disorientingly loud, which is bad underwater.  Use the pointiest bit of the gun.

  That's actually what I meant.  My metal CCW already has a nice point, isn't soft metal, and I have it on me.

Although I guess the projectile would work well, as well.

[KD5NRH]

I think we've all been looking at not taking out the windshield, but the side windows.  The windshield, as you say, is laminated.  In order to get out through it breaking it is basically useless, any holes you punch won't expand significantly, etc...  You basically have to rip it out of it's frame.

If you smash a foot-sized chunk of it near the frame while it's under that much water pressure, it should do a pretty good job of ripping loose at the edge.

If you could break the whole windshield, I'd be worried about the force of the water coming in through a hole that big.  Honestly, I'd be worried about the force through side windows too, but unless you have vent or other small windows, you work with what's there.

What about the rear window?  The ones I've seen broken were all tempered rather than laminated.

Ball-peen hammer, with a hole drilled in the ball and a hardened concrete nail (head ground off) epoxied in there. You'd want to make this up ahead of time

Why?  I usually had a drill in the car.

Though I guess if it wasn't preassembled, just driving the nail through the window with the hammer would be quicker than trying to drill the hammer head.